Modern Turbo-diesel Autos--When will we get one?

[burnbomber]

I'm not talking about a Ford F-150 for towing, I'm talking about a 4 cylinder or small V-6 for a modern medium sized car like a Ford Fusion, or a Nissan, Mazda, or a Dodge Caliber. That portion of the market is absolutely empty around these parts, where it's booming in other markets.

Now that fuels are creeping into the $2.50 range (again), seems to me that turbo-diesels can satisfy a growing need for honest 50-mpg cars. I don't understand what's taking so long. All the Big 4 makers already have these engines in productions. Seems like a simple matter to send them to us.

Is there something I'm not getting? I know 5 states don't permit them, but what about the rest of the country? Are there other regs keeping us from 50-mpg cars? Or is it a conspiracy betweeen Exxon-Mobil, Conoco-Phillips, GM, and Ford?

 

[rpn453]

The Jetta, Golf, and Passat TDIs are fairly popular around here. I'm surprised there are no other manufacturers in North America. Even new diesels seem to have pretty bad emissions though. I'm not sure that I'd want to see more of them around the city. Aren't there some tighter emissions regulations coming into effect on diesels soon? Maybe that's what is holding them back.

We've got those little Smart cars here too, but, aside from Vancouver and that area, they're not well suited to Canadian driving conditions.

 

[Shaman]

Diesels are for trucks and hauling stuff. Can’t break the stigma. Unless they can build a diesel that will drive like a gasser, I don’t know willing the public would be willing to buy into them. I think that VW is loving their little niche, but I don’t understand why no one else will bring it over. I think that there are new diesel regulations coming in next year that will affect a lot of things, so they may be waiting until after the changes are made in the rules, so that changes in the engines can be made.

 

[oilyriser]

My Subaru *sounds* like a diesel.

I'd buy one, just because I'd be able to make my own fuel. We do have the Smart diesel version in Canada.

Smart ForTwo: 0.8L 3 cylinder turbodiesel, 6 spd electronic, two seater. City/Hwy 4.6/3.8 L/100km.
That's 51/62 in American mpg.

I just remembered. These are inflated Canadian mpg numbers. The EPA equivalent would be maybe 10% lower.

Honda Insight, two seater, 60/66 for comparison.

If they made the Smart as streamlined as the Insight, you'd probably get 75 mpg on the highway. It looks like the front half of a car driving down the road.

 

[Matt_S]

This has been discussed a number of times here. The basic answer is the sulphur levels in the fuel. Currently, most diesel fuel sold here has too much sulphur for the newer emmission control systems on the diesels sold in Europe and elsewhere (it clogs cat converters). That will be changing later this year, so you should start to see more diesel options starting in model year '07.

 

[JHZR2]

Sulfur is the issue... but in reality, the answer is another question set:
-when will the typical American consumer stop being an idiot?
-when will the typical marketing person stop being a younger female in NYC?

Answers to both are 'probably never', and so the answer to your question will be 'probably never'.

Sure VW, etc might bring one out here and there... but I doubt much else personally...

JMH

 

[robbobster]

I'm willing to give US buyers a bit more credit, I think folks are a lot more savvy these days.

I think people's poor opinion of diesels was rooted in the products offered: crappy GM diesels that were weak, warmed-over gasoline engines, poor performance, smoky, etc.

All of these issues have been solved with the newer diesels.

When you consider that, not too long ago, the majority of Mercedes-Benz vehicles sold here were diesels, I think that goes to show folks will buy a competitive diesel-engined vehicle.

 

[Matt_S]

Even though they haven't announced any plans that I'm aware of, GM has existing partnerships with both Isuzu and Fiat, both of which produce small diesels. If diesels start to catch on, look for those engines in GM's domestic products.

 

[michaelc80]

There are 2 additional problems. The cost of diesel fuel is significantly higher-around here it's been about 40-50 cents more per gallon than gasoline-and the added up front cost of a diesel engine. It takes too long for many consumers to get any payback from the fuel mileage savings.

When I was looking at new cars last spring I seriously looked at a VW diesel. But since I only drive about 20K miles per year after running the numbers it would take somewhere around 10 years before there was any real savings (comparing a Jetta TDI to a regular gas Jetta).

That didn't factor in the cost of maintenance on either engine, but I do most of my own anyway so maintenance costs aren't that much.

And the comment about typical American consumers being idiots is arrogant. Most American consumers are pretty savvy.

 

[JHZR2]

Have you taken a walk in the wal-mart lately? Have you checked peoples' personal savings rates lately? How about their average credit card balances?

Its all a 'keeping up with the joneses', 'you deserve it', 'your life is so hard, let us make it easy for you', 'you are a high end person (though your bank account doesnt show it), so wear prada and coach... forget about anything reasonably priced - youre not cool if you dont look like the glamourous hollywood stars' society...

and last time I checked, buying at wal mart, though good for your economic bottom line in the short-term, isnt all that savvy of shopping in the big scheme of things.

JMH

 

[Quattro Pete]

quote:

---

There are 2 additional problems. The cost of diesel fuel is significantly higher-around here it's been about 40-50 cents more per gallon than gasoline-and the added up front cost of a diesel engine. It takes too long for many consumers to get any payback from the fuel mileage savings.

---

Right on! Out here, diesel costs about as much as premium grade gasoline, and when they make the diesel cleaner, I won't be surprised if its price will be even higher. You would really need to drive A LOT for it to be a sound economical decision.

The reason why diesel cars are so popular in Europe is because they not only get better mpg figures, but also that diesel fuel is significantly cheaper than gasoline due to the specific tax structure. And even then, people who don't drive a lot think twice about getting one.

Pollution aspects are questionable at best. Even though you're not supposed to see any smoke from a modern diesel engine, whenever I go back to Europe, I see a ton of diesel cars (old and new) with dark clouds behind them whenever they step on the accelerator.

So, my guess is, it'll be quite a while before we see diesel-powered family sedans as the mainstream here in the US.

 

[1sttruck]

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/20030804a1.asp?prodtype=auto

The pros and cons of going diesel

The price of the gasoline Jetta is $19,460. The cost of the turbo diesel Jetta is $20,480, a difference of $1,020. But the turbo diesel Jetta gets much better fuel economy, 46 miles per gallon, compared to the gasoline Jetta's 31 miles per gallon.

Let's say you drive 15, 000 miles a year. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, (week of June 21, 2004), the national average cost per gallon of diesel was $1.90; the average cost per gallon of regular was $1.94.

Driving the turbo diesel Jetta, you'd save $383 in fuel costs each year. In three years, you'd save $1,149 in fuel costs, $129 more than the cost of your diesel engine.

 

[Quattro Pete]

So, it takes you 3 years to break even IF the cost of diesel is lower than the cost of regular gas, but according to this:

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp

In December 2005, the national cost of regular was $2.19, and diesel - $2.44.


Also, how do the maintenance costs compare over 3, 6 years? I thought the Jetta TDI required more maintenance. I may be wrong on this though.

 

[1sttruck]

As I've suggested before, you need to be careful about the assumptions being made in the typical gas vs diesel comparision. Usually they do like the article did that I previously posted, option out both vehicles the same and then compare the one with the gas vs the one with the diesel engine. If I'm considering a diesel, like I did with my truck, I'd prefer to start with the powertrain and then see what options I wanted / could afford, as I don't think that butt warmers, vanity mirrors, etc., are as important as the powertrain.

 

[JHZR2]

And let me add that 1sttruck IS one of the SAAVY American shoppers... and a rarity!

JMH

 

[keith]

If you can fill up with diesel for $1.90 anywhere, it's a winner for sure.

Unfortunately, diesel is running higher than gasoline by quite a margin here. Not 50% higher, but enough to make the break even time extend out to 10 years as michaelc80 calculated. Then there is the inconvenience of getting into the truck lane to fill up and wait while they pump hundreds of gallons.

The transition to diesel will be slow. Tax incentives would speed that along, but the phrase "tax cut" sends about half of our federal government into incoherent rage.

 

[Spitty]

Now what I want is a small, 4cyl, Diesel, Pick up for work, just like Toyota and Nissan made in the 80's, No Bells and Whistles other than cloth covered seats and power steering.
You know a WORK TRUCK!
Doesnt anyone work anymore?

 

[1sttruck]

"Now what I want is a small, 4cyl, Diesel, Pick up for work, just like Toyota and Nissan made in the 80's, No Bells and Whistles other than cloth covered seats and power steering.
You know a WORK TRUCK!"

That's what I wanted, and found; rubber mats, cloth seats, roll up windows, stick, and I didn't want a big truck either so I got a short bed instead of long bed or dually, but it's an inline 6 instead of a 4 cyl.

(I have a Dodge 4x4 quad cab short bed with a Cummins.)

 

[burnbomber]

I didn't know diesels had catalytic converters. I did learn of upcoming 2007 emission regs on this topic I posted to another forum. Are they (the upcoming 2007 emission regs) going to promote the current California and Northeast states standards? Those states can't register new diesels, but I found they can register used diesels.

 

[Master ACiD]

honda is apparently bringing out a diesel accord to the us sometime. i think 2007 iirc.