Modern Engine's Grenading?

[pbm]

Originally Posted by Or
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I never realized chains were this problematic. Maybe timing belt system is better?


This is particularly a VW problem. They have designed many, many bad or problematic chain installations.



I think GM had it's share of timing chain tensioner issues with both the 3.6 and maybe even the 2.4.....

Originally Posted by racin4ds
2012 Nissan Versa with the piece of garbage Renault 1.6, engine was hammering at 21,000miles. Took it to the dealer 3 times before a decent tech agreed and put a new motor in it. I then unloaded it on them and got talked into a 2013 Sentra with the 1.8. Same piece of Renault junk, started knocking before it had 20k miles on it. Oil changes were done at the dealer as they were free and all were done at recommended 7000 miles.


IMO, Nissan quality went down hill when they got in bed with Renault....

 

[maxdustington]

Originally Posted by PimTac
My thought is that chains are better overall. The switch back to chains from belts did not include the wide type chain we used to see way back when. These look more like bicycle chains. The design or metallurgy may not have been enough for the new stresses of tgdi engines thus the failures.

I'll bet most of the failures are the result of poor maintenance led by non regular oil changes.

I would take chain over a belt anyway.
I would argue that they are also caused by manufacturers optimistic OCI duration on thin oil, like the GM 3.6.

 

[novadude]

Originally Posted by skyactiv
Originally Posted by Brigadier
My 2006 Colorado 3.5L I-5 grenaded at 114k miles, needed a complete rebuild. Meticulously maintained. 'Something inside the engine broke and went thru the oil system.'


I heard the valve seats had issues in the early Colorados, one could drop and take the engine out. The Ford Focus had the same issue with some engines.
Surprised the Chrysler 2.7 V6 wasn't mentioned yet. It was such a piece of crap finding a good used one in a salvage yard in nearly impossible.


I bought a brand new 2005 Colorado 3.5L, and I had the head replaced under warranty at 30k miles (it set a code, as I guess the valve seat was leaking and compression was down on one cylinder). I never had another issue with that engine. I ran it to 185k miles with 5k OCIs on various 5W-30 synthetic oils (PP, M1, Maxlife). When I traded it on my 2016 Colorado, it wasn't even using any oil between 5k mile oil changes (4-8 oz at most).

 

[barryh]

Originally Posted by Or
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I never realized chains were this problematic. Maybe timing belt system is better?


This is particularly a VW problem. They have designed many, many bad or problematic chain installations.


Mercedes have problems with chain drives too.

I have trouble believing they can't engineer a reliable timing chain drive when they have been doing it for so long . What I believe is happening is that they are compromising durability in exchange for reduced frictional losses through the use of single row instead of the double row chains that were used successfully in the past.

If they really can't engineer a reliable low friction loss chain drive than give me a belt any day which will at least be cheaper and simpler to replace.

 

[turnbowm]

Because of incomplete combustion in GDI/TGDI engines, carbon particles are produced which are too small to filter. These particulates contaminate the oil and are responsible for accelerated timing chain wear. Dexos1 Gen2 oils, in addition to minimizing LSPI events, reduces timing chain wear.

I realize that direct injection offers power and fuel economy advantages over port injection, but I wonder if the auto makers knew what they were getting themselves in for. The dual-injection system, used in some Toyota and Ford vehicles, seems like an expensive (and complicated) band-aid.

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I never realized chains were this problematic. Maybe timing belt system is better?




My thought is that chains are better overall. The switch back to chains from belts did not include the wide type chain we used to see way back when. These look more like bicycle chains. The design or metallurgy may not have been enough for the new stresses of tgdi engines thus the failures.

I'll bet most of the failures are the result of poor maintenance led by non regular oil changes.

I would take chain over a belt anyway.

Well I suppose you can "blame" lack of oil changes. I prefer the old days and a more robust design that never fails. It's like when the 35W bridge collapsed in Minnesota. Many blamed a lack of maintenance. However, if the bridge had been build heavy enough in the first place....it wouldn't of failed. A robust design can take some real world abuse.

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I never realized chains were this problematic. Maybe timing belt system is better?

no it's mainly the [censored] German's and their fine engineering....

 

[Uphill_Both_Ways]

Originally Posted by pbm
IMO, Nissan quality went down hill when they got in bed with Renault....
And all they had to do was ask me.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by philipp10
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I never realized chains were this problematic. Maybe timing belt system is better?




My thought is that chains are better overall. The switch back to chains from belts did not include the wide type chain we used to see way back when. These look more like bicycle chains. The design or metallurgy may not have been enough for the new stresses of tgdi engines thus the failures.

I'll bet most of the failures are the result of poor maintenance led by non regular oil changes.

I would take chain over a belt anyway.

Well I suppose you can "blame" lack of oil changes. I prefer the old days and a more robust design that never fails. It's like when the 35W bridge collapsed in Minnesota. Many blamed a lack of maintenance. However, if the bridge had been build heavy enough in the first place....it wouldn't of failed. A robust design can take some real world abuse.





Well nothing is built like that anymore. We have newer alloys and designs. The automakers are trying to shave weight wherever possible. I've read that the chain manufacturers have improved both the design and the strength of material in newer chains. That is due to the early failures and the reports of GDI soot.

It always happens that when a solution is applied another problem is caused.

God forbid, if I am in a serious accident I hope it's in a modern vehicle and not a older 50's-60's-70's era car. The statistics and facts show that newer cars despite being smaller and lighter are much safer.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by philipp10
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I never realized chains were this problematic. Maybe timing belt system is better?

no it's mainly the [censored] German's and their fine engineering....

On German cars, yes - they are better off with a TB.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I never realized chains were this problematic. Maybe timing belt system is better?



Ever hear of timing belts snapping and bang goes the engine?

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I never realized chains were this problematic. Maybe timing belt system is better?

Ever hear of timing belts snapping and bang goes the engine?

Sure, with deferred maintenance.

Belts are better.

 

[Audios]

My 97 A4 stripped 10 teeth off of the timing belt while i was coasting over a speed bump slowly, at 54k, back in 2002. Luckily there was a class action on the early ones and I was mostly reimbursed for what I had into it, a few years later. I guess it can go either way. Engines are much more stressed these days, stretched thin making crazy power, great fuel economy, minimal maintenance, and are pretty much disposable.

 

[Leo99]

Guy I used to work with has 3 or 4 Sonatas. One the engines blew up. He was busy fighting with Hyundai to get them to honor the warranty.

 

[littleant]

Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I never realized chains were this problematic. Maybe timing belt system is better?



Ever hear of timing belts snapping and bang goes the engine?

Oh yea. Early Ford escorts belt breaks and valves bend. Did MANY in my shop. You could give a customer a quote on the repairs without opening the engine. (Interference engine). BUT that said many many people if not most would exceed the recommend mileage to change the belt by quite a bit.

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted by turnbowm

I realize that direct injection offers power and fuel economy advantages over port injection, but I wonder if the auto makers knew what they were getting themselves in for. The dual-injection system, used in some Toyota and Ford vehicles, seems like an expensive (and complicated) band-aid.


Not too expensive, nor overly complicated.
Injector duty cycle times are easily programed in, as needed.

Having said that, it was certainly an unintended consequence.

I'm glad they are on top of it with a workable "fix".

 

[MrMoody]

Wife's 05 Matrix broke a ring/piston on the interstate at 102K. Oil was full and got changed whenever the light came on.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I never realized chains were this problematic. Maybe timing belt system is better?

Ever hear of timing belts snapping and bang goes the engine?

Sure, with deferred maintenance.

Belts are better.


No they're not. Metal durability > rubber/nitrile/whatever mix durability

 

[StevieC]

Belts snapping in non-interference engines usually is fine but on the rare occasion can cause a problem, the problem is most timing-belt type engines are interference and well, if the belt snaps there goes the engine because the valves usually make contact with the piston. Timing chains on the other hand seem to last forever when they are a quality chain and properly designed setup.

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted by Skippy722
No they're not. Metal durability > rubber/nitrile/whatever mix durability

Ok, Skippy.

If a belt fails, it's typically YOUR fault because YOU neglected maintenance. If a chain fails, it's more or less random, and a design failure.

Less lubricated and moving parts with a belt. They run quieter and don't contribute to oil shearing.

I'd rather have a reliable part with a known life than a "lifetime" part that could fail whenever because it was poorly designed. I'd rather my 911 have a timing belt or two and have to drop the engine every 80k than the multi-chain, multi-tensioner, multi-failure point system it has now. Same with my Audi. Timing chains on the rear - awesome design! What was wrong with the belt on the front?