Mobile 1 Synthetic 15w/50 - Not what it used to be?

[jeff78]

Originally Posted by kschachn

One would think the link that's trying to be posted is this one: https://www.mobil.com/lubricants/-/...B478EACF4BAC5D7B9A3D33763B53E67669592EE5

I found this one Googling 'Mobil 1 zddp comparison chart', it's the second result (also a direct PDF link): https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=2ahUKEwjz_5-I0NboAhWzl3IEHSukA7YQFjAJegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mobil.com%2Flubricants%2F-%2Fmedia%2FProject%2FWEP%2FMobil%2FMobil-RoW-US-1%2FFiles%2Fmobil-1-racing-product-guide.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3whvF5jfpnafiU-OjkG2LH

 

[NorCalHD]

Originally Posted by jeff78

Originally Posted by kschachn

One would think the link that's trying to be posted is this one: https://www.mobil.com/lubricants/-/...B478EACF4BAC5D7B9A3D33763B53E67669592EE5

I found this one Googling 'Mobil 1 zddp comparison chart', it's the second result (also a direct PDF link): https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=2ahUKEwjz_5-I0NboAhWzl3IEHSukA7YQFjAJegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mobil.com%2Flubricants%2F-%2Fmedia%2FProject%2FWEP%2FMobil%2FMobil-RoW-US-1%2FFiles%2Fmobil-1-racing-product-guide.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3whvF5jfpnafiU-OjkG2LH

Yes! Thats the chart I was using to compare to UOAs and VOAs.

Originally Posted by jeff78

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

Wasn't it pointed out when you've posted this before that it's very old information and not relevant today?

Not only that, take a close look at the fonts in that 'VOA', there are at least 3 different font sizes and 2 typefaces used. Also, you'll basically never see a real VOA showing additives at the exact nominal quantities, e.g. exactly 1200ppm. Come on BLS, if you're going to doctor up some pics, at least put some effort into it.

That is interesting! Update: I emailed Mobile asking about the discrepancies of the chart and VOA's.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by NorCalHD

I emailed Mobile asking about the discrepancies of the chart and VOA's.

I doubt Mobile will answer.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted by 4WD

Originally Posted by tig1

Originally Posted by racin4ds

Anything from M1 isn't what it used to be... it still kills me to see the fan base M1 products have on here, many of these guys still think this stuff is the holy grail of oils... it is NOTHING like it used to be and is mediocre oil at best. No better than Pennzoil, Castrol or any other Group III "syn" offerings.

Another example of "fake news". My 42 years of using M1 oils has shown me their oils are as good or better than at any time. JMO.

Just imagine how many formula changes took place in those 42 years of 10k runs … but did that M1 oil ever flip in 10k like my magic magnetic Castrol did in 3k the only time we ran it ?

M1 oils of today protect my engines today ever bit as well as they did in 1978 at 10 K OCIs. I have mentioned before that some friends run M1 oils out to 15-20K with great results for 300-400K.

 

[jeff78]

Originally Posted by NorCalHD

I was very tempted to switch from Mobile 1 v-twin 20/50 to mobile 1 synthetic 15w/50 but the more recent UOA/VOA show it has less additives then a few years ago.

Another good option is VR1. You didn't mention what bike this was for, but even though Valvoline says VR1's not for use with wet clutches, I've put 35K+ miles on mine with no issues. My last UOA of VR1 SAE 40 showed ZDDP a good amount higher than what they spec'd: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...ha-fz-09-valvoline-vr1-sae-40-4000-miles

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

Like I said earlier ... link is broken. Test links before final post. How about a link that works?

The PDF file works for me and here is one page that shows the date to prove the additive levels are current as of Oct 2019...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted by Bonz

M1 15w50 didn't even have 1100 PPM of zinc in my uoa a few years back, and Mobil gives it no current specification in the year 2020 remotely similar to what is posted.

Negative Bonz here is a up date your info M1 15w50 as of Oct 2019 has 1300ppm zinc...

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop

The PDF file works for me and here is one page that shows the date to prove the additive levels are current as of Oct 2019...

Then you're pulling a cached document since the link doesn't work for anyone else. It doesn't matter since I posted a working link already. Where did you get the rest of the numbers in the table you posted?

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted by kschachn

Where did you get the rest of the numbers in the table you posted?

You need all numbers from every source possible... Motorcycles Manufactures Oil Companies Blackstone BITOG

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by kschachn

Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop

The PDF file works for me and here is one page that shows the date to prove the additive levels are current as of Oct 2019...

Then you're pulling a cached document since the link doesn't work for anyone else. It doesn't matter since I posted a working link already. Where did you get the rest of the numbers in the table you posted?

BLS (and anyone else), when you post a link in a thread it needs to be clicked or cut & pasted to ensure they work by the poster to make sure it actually works. The links you posted didn't work in your posts. What I'd like to see is the Moly numbers, and the source. Bikes with a wet clutch may not like high Moly content.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop

Originally Posted by kschachn

Where did you get the rest of the numbers in the table you posted?

You need all numbers from every source possible... Motorcycles Manufactures Oil Companies Blackstone BITOG

So you have no idea.

 

[userfriendly]

Mobil Delvac 15w50 was discounted around 2006. SAPS quite similar to Mobil 1600 and MX series. P & Zn about 1300/1450 SA 1.50. Esso XD-3 CH-4 same.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

Bikes with a wet clutch may not like high Moly content.

Mileage not moly is the observed cause of clutch slippage... The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience... employing those tools we observe that the primary cause clutch slip are high mileage... mileage is the constant among all of the clutches that begin to slip... oil choice whether JASO approved or not is not a constant... High mileage is the constant where all clutches begin to loose grip due to normal glazing and contaminates that build up over use... Redline is not only heavy on moly but JASO MA approved... mounting evidence that Moly will not and has never been the culprit responsible for clutch slip... look to high mileage... Noted Motorcycle oils that also employ moly... Honda GN4 Suzuki Ecstar Motul 7100 Asmoil MC Mobil 4T

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

Bikes with a wet clutch may not like high Moly content.

Mileage not moly is the observed cause of clutch slippage... The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience... employing those tools we observe that the primary cause clutch slip are high mileage... mileage is the constant among all of the clutches that begin to slip... oil choice whether JASO approved or not is not a constant... High mileage is the constant where all clutches begin to loose grip due to normal glazing and contaminates that build up over use... Redline is not only heavy on moly but JASO MA approved... mounting evidence that Moly will not and has never been the culprit responsible for clutch slip... look to high mileage... Noted Motorcycle oils that also employ moly... Honda GN4 Suzuki Ecstar Motul 7100 Asmoil MC Mobil 4T

More of the same cut & paste I see. Slipping clutches and over heating the plates (due to not modulating the clutch properly) causes the plates to glaze. If the clutch is used correctly and never overheats, it will not glaze much if at all. If you run an oil that allows the clutch to slip when fully engaged, then the plates will glaze up pretty fast. This was the main reason the Asian motorcycle manufacturers came out with the JASO specification for wet-clutch motorcycle oils Redline motorcycle oil does not have an official JASO approval. It simply says "suitable for JASO MA applications". Is Redline to cheap and lazy to officially get the JASO rating on their motorcycle oils? For what they charge for a quart, you'd certainly think they could afford it, lol. If it's not Moly in dedicated JASO motorcycle oils, then it's other friction modifiers that distinguish JASO oil from non-JASO oil. Who's going to prove that certain automobile oils (like Mobil 1) isn't too slippery and doesn't/couldn't meet JASO friction level specifications. Nobody here ... that's who.

 

[NorCalHD]

Originally Posted by kschachn

Originally Posted by NorCalHD

I emailed Mobile asking about the discrepancies of the chart and VOA's.

I doubt Mobile will answer.

I asked about mixing 15w/50 with v-twin 20-50 in a bike that leaves about a quart of oil in the sump that can not be drained. And about the discrepancies of ZDDP and included a link to their own chart: "I would still have to discourage mixing dissimilar SAE grades. They're not formulated with a mixture in mind, so I could not guarantee it would be safe. I'm not sure who VOA is, but the 1200ppm and 1300ppm levels you noted in Mobil 1 15W-50 have been consistent for several years running. I couldn't be sure if someone else's chart is simply outdated, or was never accurate to begin with. Internal security protocols are going to prohibit me from following your link, sorry. Thank you for choosing Mobil, "

Originally Posted by jeff78

Originally Posted by NorCalHD

I was very tempted to switch from Mobile 1 v-twin 20/50 to mobile 1 synthetic 15w/50 but the more recent UOA/VOA show it has less additives then a few years ago.

Another good option is VR1. You didn't mention what bike this was for, but even though Valvoline says VR1's not for use with wet clutches, I've put 35K+ miles on mine with no issues. My last UOA of VR1 SAE 40 showed ZDDP a good amount higher than what they spec'd: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...ha-fz-09-valvoline-vr1-sae-40-4000-miles

That is a great candidate but the price point is no different then the M1 v-twin. In syn.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

If the clutch is used correctly and never overheats, it will not glaze much if at all.

True to its racing intent Honda's RC45 sports a sprag type back torque limiter slipper clutch to manage the effects of engine braking as you down shift through the gears entering a corner... couple with a tall first gear good for 90mph you're going to incinerate the clutch plates but it can take it because its oil cooled...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

If it's not Moly in dedicated JASO motorcycle oils, then it's other friction modifiers that distinguish JASO oil from non-JASO oil.

True... Moly will not and never has been the culprit responsible for clutch slip... always look to high mileage... According to RDMgr What distinguish JASO from non JASO is $365.00 because they do not test oils... RDMgr "JALOS does not test oils. They register oils based on manufacturer data and site. Most of the data is generated by additive package manufacturers. The system is just for registration. They hate any term that implies their approval such as "certified by". "Cost to register one grade of oil from one manufacturing site is 40,000 Japanese Yen or about USD 365.00." "JASO sets the standard. JALOS has the responsibility for the review and registration. Once this is done you have the right to use the mark on your labels. The documents submitted for review include the technical performance data and label design."

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

If it's not Moly in dedicated JASO motorcycle oils, then it's other friction modifiers that distinguish JASO oil from non-JASO oil.

True... Moly will not and never has been the culprit responsible for clutch slip... always look to high mileage...

If clutch slippage isn't caused by the oil's friction level, then why does JASO specify friction level specifications for wet clutch use?

Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop

According to RDMgr What distinguish JASO from non JASO is $365.00 because they do not test oils... RDMgr "JALOS does not test oils. They register oils based on manufacturer data and site. Most of the data is generated by additive package manufacturers. The system is just for registration. They hate any term that implies their approval such as "certified by". "Cost to register one grade of oil from one manufacturing site is 40,000 Japanese Yen or about USD 365.00." "JASO sets the standard. JALOS has the responsibility for the review and registration. Once this is done you have the right to use the mark on your labels. The documents submitted for review include the technical performance data and label design."

There is required test data that needs to be measured and reported to JASO in order to get the oil certified. If companies like Redline say their oil is "suitable for JASO MA applications" without it actually being formally certified, then how would they know unless they did the required tests? And if they did the tests, then it's just a matter of submitting the data with a small payment to get their oil JASO certified. Yet they don't ... there has to be a reason why. Here's a PDF right from jaso.org of the requirements that need to be fulfilled to get the JASO stamp of approval on 4-stroke oil. Note the friction requirements, which would have to be measured and reported. They have a similar process for 2-stroke oil http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV0604.pdf

 

[ZeeOSix]

Here's a good link that explains the JASO 4-cycle oil specs, and gets into the friction requirements outlined in JASO T 903. http://www.mototribology.com/articles/jaso-explained-part-1/

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by NorCalHD

I asked about mixing 15w/50 with v-twin 20-50 in a bike that leaves about a quart of oil in the sump that can not be drained. And about the discrepancies of ZDDP and included a link to their own chart: "I would still have to discourage mixing dissimilar SAE grades. They're not formulated with a mixture in mind, so I could not guarantee it would be safe. I'm not sure who VOA is, but the 1200ppm and 1300ppm levels you noted in Mobil 1 15W-50 have been consistent for several years running. I couldn't be sure if someone else's chart is simply outdated, or was never accurate to begin with. Internal security protocols are going to prohibit me from following your link, sorry. Thank you for choosing Mobil, "

And that is both the correct answer and it comes from an entity that would know. They should discourage mixing as there's no guarantee that any mixture would still meet the specifications or approvals that any individual oil carries. Thanks for posting that. One thing that has been consistent on here is the inconsistency of Blackstone analyses.