Mobil1 TDT 5W-40 / 5994 Mi / 06 Audi A4 2.0T FSI

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
May 27, 2002
Messages
116
Location
Wisconsin
Your thoughts?

Analysis by Blackstone...

Thanks!


Comments:
It's another good report for your Audi. This oil was run just under 6,000 miles, but you couldn't tell it by looking at wear. All wear either held steady or improved over what we found last time and that is an excellent sign that no problems are developing. We did fine a trace of fuel, though that's not what we would consider a problem level and it should take care of itself next time. The viscosity was again slightly low, but a little better than what we have been seeing. The TBN was strong at 4.5, so active additive held up nicely. Try 8,000 miles next oil.



Code:


OIL M1 0w-40 M1 TDT 5W-40 M1 TDT 5W-40

REPORT DATE 08/03/09 10/22/09 12/03/09

MI/HR on Oil 5239 4550 5994

MI/HR on Unit 46387 54303 60297

Sample Date 07/29/09 10/03/09 11/14/09

Make Up Oil 0 qts 0 qts 0 qts





ELEMENTS

IN PARTS PER MILLION

ALUMINUM 2 2 2

CHROMIUM 0 0 0

IRON 28 11 10

COPPER 2 2 2

LEAD 1 0 0

TIN 0 1 1

MOLYBDENUM 70 17 3

NICKEL 1 1 1

MANGANESE 1 1 1

SILVER 0 0 0

TITANIUM 0 0 0

POTASSIUM 2 1 1

BORON 113 50 30

SILICON 3 2 2

SODIUM 56 8 9

CALCIUM 2561 1335 1217

MAGNESIUM 42 629 765

PHOSPHORUS 806 916 854

ZINC 1000 1089 992

BARIUM 0 0 0





PROPERTIES

SUS Viscosity @ 210°F 63.0 63.0 64.2

cSt Viscosity @ 100°C 11.06 11.07 11.39

Flashpoint in °F 390 385 370

Fuel % 0.5 0.5 TR

Antifreeze % ? 0.0 0.0

Water % 0.0 0.0 0.0

Insolubles % 0.3 0.3 0.2

TBN 6.7 6.0 4.5



Additional Information

Iron per 1000 miles 5.34 2.42 1.67
 
That's not a trace of fuel, that's blackstone saying that fuel is present and that their test is basically unsuitable to give an exact percentage. The flashpoint is showing solid fuel dilution.

This oil is a much better application for this engine, in my humble opinion. It's robustness is well suited.
 
Like Terry found in my report on my Speed 6 the shear is from fuel damaging the oil while present regardless of it burning off, which it appears to have for the most part. Wear appears to be well under control, nice report. Id go further myself considering you are good about getting your UOAs done.
 
Originally Posted By: Nederlander75
Like Terry found in my report on my Speed 6 the shear is from fuel damaging the oil while present regardless of it burning off...

+1

Iron levels are sure different than the M1 0W40. Also it should be noted that virgin ZDDP levels are higher in TDT than the 0W40. Does that account for the iron level difference? Or is it due to base oils? Combo? TDT did shear a lot as it is 14.9cst virgin as I recall. That's a huge loss of 24%

I bet redline 5W40 would shear to about 13.5 or so from 15.1 starting kv100. I would run redline 5w40 or 5w30 and see what iron, viscosity, and flashpoint look like. I'm currently running a 5w30/10W40 mix in my 2.0FSI. I wonder if it will hold up as well as the 5w40.? I purposely ran the last run of 5W40 "too long" at 7500 miles to see how it would behave. Should have results next week.

Here are some interesting related quotes from Terry Dyson re: the M1 0W40 use in a DI engine:

"reb03, the M1 0w40 should not be run longer than 1000 miles to be safe.. Audi and BMW know they are having problems but are marketing tied to certain LARGE oil company that sponsors BITOG thus they cannot speak out about it."

"reb03, I have customers running BMW5w30, M1 0w40 all with the same effect, the wear control is good if we change the oil at 1000 mile intervals but the deposit formation from REAL volatility issues are slowly damaging the engines. I just worked a 07 335 Biturbo yesterday USING ASTM lab tests on the used oil and M1 0w40 went from VOA flash of 430+F to 280 F in 1150 miles, oil sheared to 12.1 cSt and fuel was at 1.99% by IR."

Found in this thread:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=76156&Number=981179#Post981179

IMO M1 0w40 and syntec 5W40 just do not cut it in this engine. As Rl-RS4 pointed out in the link above, where these engines/oils are tested in Europe the cars run in lean stratified mode which is thought to produce much less fuel dilution. Thus it is possible that an oil that is ok in Europe is only good for 1k miles here.
 
Last edited:
Just to clarify my daubts regarding fuel dilution. 95%+ of this vehicle's mileage is at freeway speeds. I drive a minimum of 170 miles per day.
 
Originally Posted By: Scott_in_WI
Just to clarify my daubts regarding fuel dilution. 95%+ of this vehicle's mileage is at freeway speeds. I drive a minimum of 170 miles per day.


Interesting, if you get a chance look at Adeere's runs. He drives 99% highway and every oil he uses looks fine, including M1 0W40. I will try to post them here if I get time. Thus "light duty" may play a significant role as these nearly all highway cars show pretty dramatic differences in results compared to more mixed driving.

If you are running nearly all highway, I would try the redline 5W30, maybe even Amsoil SSO? and see what they show. I think you will pick up a few mpg with the RL 5w30 vs. the RL 5W40. It owuld be interesting to see if those oils could go 10k with the light duty use.
 
I wouldn't call Fe of 10 at 6k miles in this engine 'high', by any measure!

Anyway, yeah, I missed the FP. Loss of visc. is fuel, but has not negatively impacted wear. I'd stick with TDT if you can get it easily.....
 
FYI flashpoint data we have for this engine varies from 300-425 mostly from Blackstone analyses. Median is 365F, so 50% of samples are below 365F. About 50 samples total. I would be careful about chalking viscosity loss up to fuel rather than mechanical shear.
 
Originally Posted By: addyguy
I wouldn't call Fe of 10 at 6k miles in this engine 'high', by any measure!


Yea 1.6ppm/1k miles is extremely low. Mileage on engine and light duty are big factors but that is very low iron and probably the lowest to date of any run on this engine. the 5.4 number I would consider high for sure, especially with the mileage and light duty. Here are the M1 0W40 data points (yellow points) for this engine (probably not updated though). in ppm/1k miles, x axis is miles on vehicle. They are higher than average for the most part. TDT is a different animal than m1 0W40.
m1.jpg
 
Ignore FP and shear, and the results are excellent for this engine and miles on oil. I wouldn't change anything, unless you really want to try RL.
 
What does this chart look like if you exclude all samples under 15,000, i.e. after break-in? Would be interesting to see what the median rate is in the post break-in period from 15-60k miles.

Cheers,

Jeff
 
I’m inclined to agree with WEBFORS, as long as wear remains low, the rest is minutia. I’m planning to continue with M1 TDT as it’s readily available and my fuel mileage has averaged around 30 MPG, which I can’t complain about.

Thanks for your feedback!!
 
Originally Posted By: Scott_in_WI
I’m inclined to agree with WEBFORS, as long as wear remains low, the rest is minutia. I’m planning to continue with M1 TDT as it’s readily available and my fuel mileage has averaged around 30 MPG, which I can’t complain about.


As has been stated on BITOG numerous times, ppm iron in a UOA, especially at low levels and without significant trending and expert analysis may not be a good indicator of wear.

A UOA is most valuable in determining oil condition. It seems you are ignoring perhaps the most valuable information of the UOA (oil condition indicators) and putting all the weight on the most speculative information of the UOA (ppm Fe etc.).
 
Well, let's look at the condition of the Mobil1 TDT for this UOA:
1. still has an acceptable TBN
2. contains no water/antifreeze
3. very low insoluables
4. extremely low silicon
5. contains a trace of fuel - we've had some cold weather here in Wisconsin already
6. it is shearing slightly out of grade, as you have told me, this engine is a "shear monster"
7. flash point is lower than I'd like, will need to watch this

Even though I'm an infrequent poster on this sight, I've been a "lingerer" since before BITOG existed when Bob Winters and Terry Dyson were still bantering on the NORIA forums.

I drive roughly 60K miles per year, so the thought of having to order my oil is not very appealing. Especially when I can pickup M1 TDT at three locations within 2 miles of my home...
 
Originally Posted By: Scott_in_WI
Well, let's look at the condition of the Mobil1 TDT for this UOA:
1. still has an acceptable TBN
2. contains no water/antifreeze
3. very low insoluables
4. extremely low silicon
5. contains a trace of fuel - we've had some cold weather here in Wisconsin already
6. it is shearing slightly out of grade, as you have told me, this engine is a "shear monster"
7. flash point is lower than I'd like, will need to watch this

Even though I'm an infrequent poster on this sight, I've been a "lingerer" since before BITOG existed when Bob Winters and Terry Dyson were still bantering on the NORIA forums.

I drive roughly 60K miles per year, so the thought of having to order my oil is not very appealing. Especially when I can pickup M1 TDT at three locations within 2 miles of my home...



24% viscosity loss is well beyond the 10-15% (kv100) usually recommended as an oil condemnation point. Flashpoint is lowered but not as bad as many in the 2.0FSI.

You could definitely do worse than the M1 TDT IMO. I think you could also do better but sounds like you don't want to go to trouble of that so that's cool. With the highway miles, your car is fortunately seeing light duty and that gives much greater flexibility in oil choice. The higher zddp of TDT compared to say m1 0w40 is also comforting in terms of cam follower wear typical for this engine.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top