Mobil1 15w50 - 2014 Road King 103 H.O.

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Well, darn it! 11/6/2020 Mobil1 15/50 - ALL other dates Mystik JT8 15/50 Diesel rated oil
As a one time experiment I tried Mobil1 15w50 as an experiment to see if a full syn would actually run at a lower oil temperature. At first I thought there maybe some reasoning based on other posts I have read but I have not been able to generate that result within any margin of error. Granted, the oil I was testing it against was a semi syn (not a full conventional) Mystik JT8 15/50 Diesel oil which I have been using exclusively until this one time test.
The Mobil 1 is a little off script in Harleys recommendation to use a CH4+ diesel oil if Harley oil is not available (and to switch back once their oil is available.) The Mobil 1 is only mentioned as a CF by Mobil.
I am in shock how low the wear was with the Mobil as the JT8 was already producing low wear numbers, granted I did not get many miles on the oil this summer but still did my run to the Smoky Mountains for a week, two up, loaded with luggage and a couple trips to the beach where the oil really heated up in traffic.
We always do a lot of interstate running 70-80 Mph GPS.
Im almost tempted to continue with Mobil 1 but I just ordered and received another 4 gallons of Mystik JT8 15/50. I did think the engine sounded a little more noisy with the Mobil and was looking forward to going back to the Mystik JT8. But, that is subjective.
The miles are low on the Mobil1 oil and it did shear down a bit for that mileage, my riding time has been limited by a new to us boat that my wife bought last year *L*

Screen Shot 2020-11-16 at 6.18.22 PM.png


Also attached below is the full PDF if your having problems viewing the image.
 

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Good analysis, thanks for taking the time to do that. According to Mystik, JT8 15w50 starts at 19.5 cSt at 100 deg C. Mobil shows 18.0 as their starting 100 deg C cSt. Relatively speaking, M1 15w50 is doing every bit as well with respect to shearing. Prorating the wear numbers based on mileage, M1 15w50 is doing better over the past 5 analyses. Unless this was the break-even point in terms of engine break-in, and numbers stay “Mobil 1 low” moving forward with Mystic 15w50.

Lol, Harley is spec’ing an oil that causes more wear with that narrow window of spec you are determined to stay in. ;)
 
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Thanks for the UOA.

Fairly low risk experiment, as M1 15/50 is well known and very popular in Harleys, take out the dealer service guys and it might even be the most popular Harley oil... for good reason apparently.

@ what like $22.95 from the mart of wal what more could you ask for...

This reminds me, not only can i not remember the last time i rode, I also can't remember the last time i changed the oil... better go check... 😳
 

alarmguy

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Good analysis, thanks for taking the time to do that. According to Mystik, JT8 15w50 starts at 19.5 cSt at 100 deg C. Mobil shows 18.0 as their starting 100 deg C cSt. Relatively speaking, M1 15w50 is doing every bit as well with respect to shearing. Prorating the wear numbers based on mileage, M1 15w50 is doing better over the past 5 analyses. Unless this was the break-even point in terms of engine break-in, and numbers stay “Mobil 1 low” moving forward with Mystic 15w50.

Lol, Harley is spec’ing an oil that causes more wear with that narrow window of spec you are determined to stay in. ;)
Without question the wear number is fantastic, we also know even with more mileage lets say if another 1000 was put on the oil that the wear would not test (prorate) 1/3 higher @ 7 or maybe better said no high then that.

I dont agree on the shearing though, since I only ran 2000 miles we do not know how much lower it would go, I was surprised to see the Mobil1 15/50 at just about a 40grade after 2000 miles in a non shared sump bike, granted though, some really high heat.
In this respect the JT8 stayed much better in grade in the exact the same riding conditions at 1000 more miles of usage.
Doesnt matter to me the starting cSt either an oil stays in grade or it doesnt.

*LOL* = Yeah, the whole Harley joke with recommended diesel oil, well, I dont know many people who run gasoline oil in engines calling for diesel oil ... :oops:
In all honesty though, if you think of that its the truth. I suspect and I can be completely wrong but lets face it, HD engines run at very high temperatures maybe more so like a diesel and maybe HD is more concerned with eventual carbon deposits then wear for people who keep the bike long enough, which is rare. With the said I am sure the Mobil1 is fine for that purpose, but then I would ask, why do automotive Diesel engine required diesel oil too? Besides suspending soot. Anyway, I think no matter what HD calls for, people will find fault ... ;) Ill take their word for it though, the 103 HO engine is an amazing trouble free engine, never, ever would have imagined not needing a repair in 6 yeas of riding it.
(agree though, running Mobil1 or any others most likely would not matter, much like if you ran a "S" rated oil in a "C" called for Diesel engine.
 
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alarmguy

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Thanks for the UOA.

Fairly low risk experiment, as M1 15/50 is well known and very popular in Harleys, take out the dealer service guys and it might even be the most popular Harley oil... for good reason apparently.

@ what like $22.95 from the mart of wal what more could you ask for...

This reminds me, not only can i not remember the last time i rode, I also can't remember the last time i changed the oil... better go check... 😳
Yeah, I know Bob, and why I did it. I mean, the numbers are like wow great. Mobil1 still mentions a CF as well and honestly? who knows, as I said it was a one time experiment and I already ordered and received 4 more gallons of JT8 before I did the test, so there wont be any more Mobil 1 during the life of this bike, not even sure how much longer I will have it or be riding or if I keep riding maybe it will be a different bike.

LOVE the bike and riding but just not getting used as much, wife and I have rode to so many places, almost feel out of things to ride too, plus she bought the boat now *L*.
If it got to that point and I wanted an around town type of bike, where it would be just mostly me riding without the wife I seriously would look at the Yamaha Tracer. But most likely would not be able to get over the fact it has a chain.

Would have been nice to see what the viscosity ended up at, even though, guess it doesnt matter if the wear is low and I am just rambling, dont see myself without a bike for a long time.
 
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With respect to the “in grade” M1 starts at 18.0 cSt and JT8 stats at 19.5 based on manufacturers specs. Staying in spec is definitely important, however the starting difference is a reality. M1 sheared relatively less from where it started. If you add that 1.5 cSt starting disadvantage back to the M1, M1 is the more shear resistant oil, and then it is sitting at 16.31 for your most recent OCI. But like you said, it is in grade or it’s not. If it takes a thicker initial oil spec to stay in grade, then that’s what it takes. Granted, M1 had the highest flash point (which probably means least fuel) of all the OCI’s, so that is in favor of the M1 with respect to the lower relative shear. Make all else equal, and the only difference is really in the wear numbers, which are really good for either oil with the small advantage to M1. When we are talking about so few ppm to begin with, what’s a few pro-rated ppm between friends? :)
 

alarmguy

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I get what your saying 100%, but an oil is in grade or not, so if it takes a higher starting point to do it, that makes it better if your looking for an oil that stays in grade which everyone is, unless its Mobil1 then excuses for it come out in the forums. Hey to me, the numbers are the numbers which also includes the great wear numbers but I dont make excuses for the failings of an oil either, in this case shearing.

One thing for sure, it wouldn't stand a chance in a shared sump.
Keep in mind the previous UOA on the Mystik JT8 with over 1000 miles on it 33% more use, had the same to slightly higher viscosity as the Mobil1 after only 2000 miles.
We dont know what the M1 15/50 would have ended up at 3000 miles, I only wish I got more riding in, there does come a point where shearing stops and levels off. I can say this for certain, the JT8 was tortured a lot more in the extra 1000 miles that it was in the engine.

Mobil is given a LOT of a free ride in forums for being what it is or it is not. I am a its there or not factual person, I could care less about starting viscosity, Im straight forward and looking at the numbers in the UOA. Same with the M1 Motorcycle oil, 20/50 great in a shared sump but in a non shared it thickens up a grade.
Again, its either in grade or not and if it was some cheap Super Tech it would not get the same leeway in the forums but since its Mobil or the low priced Rotella with the "Shell" name, we make excuses for them. :cool: Its all good, just explaining my thought process and why I do what I do.

Plus I like normal conversations like this and Im not coming out for or against any oil, just calling out the numbers as they are.

Ps, = Tiny example as why I could care less about the "starting" viscosity of an oil. I only care about results, no fluff.
Here are two VOAs a bit older but whatever. Reading numbers in literature doesnt mean that is what is in the particular bottle someone is pouring, doesnt matter to me but just if you are curious ..

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/mklinuxdude/VOA/e69402-002.jpg

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx...file,pdf&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AMTGr_b4j8-R304

(^^ in the original post on this oil I mention that Blackstone misquoted the oil as 15/40 but if you note on the VOA its correctly listed as I sent it in as a 15/50)
 
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Very much with you on the good discussion, no heartburn at all. 👍

One of my analysis was M1 15w50 after 4,090 Miles. Shared sump in my ZRX 1200. 13.32 cSt with a flashpoint of 400.

Another analysis was Mystic JT8 15w50 for 3,200 miles. 12.55 cSt with a 395 flashpoint.

Neither is in grade, if you will, but it's an example of a shared sump and M1 held up better relatively speaking in terms of shear even though it starts lower as we have been talking.

For lack of a better term, this is what I would call mechanical shear because the ZRX engine is liquid cooled and other than the miles and the slight difference in flashpoint it could be considered a fairly relative test. You certainly may have more of an issue with heat and I don't know if different oils resist heat shear better and some resist mechanical shear better.
 

alarmguy

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Agree, no heartburn. 🙃
Cant really compare oil UOA in a shared sump motorcycle with primary, transmission and engine using/sharing the same oil VS a non shared bike with separate primary, transmission and engine oil like my Road King. Honestly do not think there is a 15/50 oil that will hold up under shared sump conditions, in those cases when I had shared sump bikes I preferred 15/40 in winter and 20/50 summer.

In this UOA of my Road King with separate sumps clearly the 5 UOAs of JT8 I posted held up far better (or stayed in/closer to grade) then the Mobil1 when you look at the mileage difference. I think a pretty valid test, same rider, same bike, same weather conditions, same type of riding.
Where I do seem to think there is an advantage to the Mobil one is of course the very low Iron number. I was actually a little concerned, as the engine was more noisy with the M1 but I knew better that many Full Syn's are more noisy but low wear numbers. I KNEW when I took out Magnetic drain plug, the very light dust on it, that it was going to be a good UOA.

To me it is amazing, I think many dont realize the amount of "push" on HD touring engines, or maybe better said my style of riding, pushing over a half ton of motorcycle with 2 cylinders, relentlessly at a true 80MPH, the wind resistance of just the front windshield sticking almost straight up in the air, oil temps at those speeds from a low 245 to high 255. I would hate to see the UOA of the transmission oil and I will NEVER do one, I think about it sometimes, it wouldn't be pretty.

I am going to make it a point to start getting out on the bike more often this winter. I used to make sure if winter riding the temps would at least hit 70 a some point during the day, maybe I will lower the threshold to 65 ... *L*
Where I live, there were a ton of bikes out the last couple days and there always are on warm winter days, not me but in the summer when its well over 90 degrees?, Im one of the few bikes out, heat doesnt bother me at all, cold more so... so dont call me a whimp!
 
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"I used to make sure if winter riding the temps would at least hit 70 at some point during the day, maybe I will lower the threshold to 65" ... OK, I'll b the first one to call you a wimp!. Here in the greater Northeast, our Polar Bear club would ride with just light jackets when it gets 65. Our season is from October till April, and it doesn't start getting good until the end of November. The average temp is about 40-45 f, and at times it will be down to low to mid 20's. That's when you see what you and your bike is made of. Having the right gear and wind deflection makes all the difference in the world. Plus everyone I talk to says the same thing, that their bikes run the best in cold weather. I won't ride when there's a ton of snow, ice or salt on the roads , but at times you get caught in a flurry. The guys in the club average ages are 45 and up, with at least a dozen women that ride their own bikes to the meetups. Maybe it's just that we don't like thinking about paying for a bike and insurance for 5 month's out of the year, just to keep the bike locked up in a garage. And contrary to popular belief, it does get hot in New Jersey in the summer. And there are event rides going on everywhere when it's 90 f or higher. And this is not just a Harley club either. Every brand bike you can think of shows up at one time or another. Vintage, customs, trikes, bikes with trailers, you name it.,,,
 

alarmguy

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"I used to make sure if winter riding the temps would at least hit 70 at some point during the day, maybe I will lower the threshold to 65" ... OK, I'll b the first one to call you a wimp!. Here in the greater Northeast, our Polar Bear club would ride with just light jackets when it gets 65. Our season is from October till April, and it doesn't start getting good until the end of November. The average temp is about 40-45 f, and at times it will be down to low to mid 20's. That's when you see what you and your bike is made of. Having the right gear and wind deflection makes all the difference in the world. Plus everyone I talk to says the same thing, that their bikes run the best in cold weather. I won't ride when there's a ton of snow, ice or salt on the roads , but at times you get caught in a flurry. The guys in the club average ages are 45 and up, with at least a dozen women that ride their own bikes to the meetups. Maybe it's just that we don't like thinking about paying for a bike and insurance for 5 month's out of the year, just to keep the bike locked up in a garage. And contrary to popular belief, it does get hot in New Jersey in the summer. And there are event rides going on everywhere when it's 90 f or higher. And this is not just a Harley club either. Every brand bike you can think of shows up at one time or another. Vintage, customs, trikes, bikes with trailers, you name it.,,,
I can almost imagine riding in those conditions. I spent almost my whole life in the northeast until moving south almost 15 years ago, crap are the years flying by, cant believe its been that long already ... Im from Long Island, NY but never had a bike up there, though I will admit, I agree with you 100% I used to love the cold/crisp air of upstate NY which we would travel to much all year round, not on a bike, but skiing, hiking and your right, I guess if properly dressed it could quite nice... also when I was a bit younger but still an adult, many times to the Poconos of PA for weekend ski trips and of course being younger, night time partying, at the same time, loved the summer up there too, boating/partying in the Great South Bay and the ocean off the coast as well as outside of NY harbor and Jersey Highlands... ... maybe Ill give winter riding a try down here this year *L* But no light jacket...
 

alarmguy

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Here in WI, the only thing that ends the riding season is salt on the roads :(
No salt trucks here except interstates if ever needed, if we ever get a snow you stay home until it melts. One time in 14 years we got 6 inches but only a couple inches stuck then froze on the roads, schools were closed for a week.🙃
 
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OKAY, I'm looking at the UOA Report and the numbers don't add up??
How can the unit have nearly 5k more miles each sample but the oil only have 2-3k miles on it?
Are you changing oil every 2500 miles or so, without filter change, but only sampling every 5k miles on the bike?
 

alarmguy

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OKAY, I'm looking at the UOA Report and the numbers don't add up??
How can the unit have nearly 5k more miles each sample but the oil only have 2-3k miles on it?
Are you changing oil every 2500 miles or so, without filter change, but only sampling every 5k miles on the bike?
I don’t get a UOA every time I do a oil and filter change which I don’t think is at all unusual. I change 2 to 3 times a year and the most I will do a UOA is one of those times. Last year I didn’t get any.
 
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I get what your saying 100%, but an oil is in grade or not, so if it takes a higher starting point to do it, that makes it better if your looking for an oil that stays in grade which everyone is, unless its Mobil1 then excuses for it come out in the forums. Hey to me, the numbers are the numbers which also includes the great wear numbers but I dont make excuses for the failings of an oil either, in this case shearing.

<snip>
So let me ask this. (and I would ask it of any oil)

If it is turning in very good wear numbers how is it failing, other than being out of grade.

As long as it turns in better wear it call fall as far out of grade as it likes, IMO...;)
 

alarmguy

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Agree, the word failings was in response to Bonz comment about comparing the JT8 and M1 being out of grade.
And as we know on this forum being out of grade is widely disparaged. Without question it is desirable not to drop to low in a 50wt oil when those temps run 240 to 260 degrees if you don’t want to listen to any unsettling noises even if wear not affected 🤪
 
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In my bike, a shared sump rears its head. Staying in grade in a shared sump equates to a better shift quality over an OCI. My bike calls for a 5,000 mile OCI, ergo is something I look at maybe more than others. My bike is liquid cooled, so mechanical shearing is the main issue, not shearing that may occur from extreme heat and thus oil break-down. With respect to the difference in amount the M1 or JT8 stayed in or out of grade, it is a relative amount between them that could be covered by a very thin hair. I am sure my ear could not pick up a different sound of the valve train in my bike with oils having such similar numbers, but maybe the Harley is different in that respect.

Earlier, you shared that full syn oils are known to be noisier than conventional or syn-blend, what is the cause of that if viscosity is the same between two oils at the time they are in the engine? I typically equate thicker or thinner regardless of oil type as being the telling element with respect to valve train noise. Is it because of the more uniform molecule size in syn oil vs a blend or conventional that have a larger share of “outlier” larger molecules that somehow play a role in noise reduction? Just throwing out ideas (probably more likely a guess), but am interested in what may be the cause of the lower noise.
 
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alarmguy

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The following is something I find interesting, just my thoughts yet not enough to want to research it or look into it. Because as I have expressed my opinion on this before, there is almost no (major)difference in wear numbers of the same spec oil, whether full syn, semi syn or plain old conventional. Actually I am not so sure any conventional oil is truly full conventional without some syn in it. I am a bit surprised how well the M1 UOA was ... so maybe I am wrong/

I equate more noisy engine to the more uniform (translated smaller) size of Full syn vs. non uniform size of conventional and some degree semi syn of course. I think its accurate if someone complains about more noisy oil that they will be talking about full syn.
Also of course, super hot oil will thin out = more noise vs the same oil in the same engine running at a normal temperature.
This can happen even in a liquid cooled engine depending on the engine load, like marine engines, vehicles towing trailers.

Run a marine engine with improper oil (20/50 Castrol vs Mercury Marine 25/40) for a 2 hour hard run out into the ocean, (I remember this happening on my brothers boat) twin engines, first time he chose to save money using Castrol. Even though boat engines run with 160 degree thermostats it doesnt mean the oil isnt hot. Anyway, back at port, the valve train was just clattering and chattering away. Out went the Castrol and back to Mercury Marine. Vehicles that tow without oil coolers can also run hot oil.

There is one other thing that comes to mind and I didnt care to read much of it. (not really a lack of interest vs lack of time in my life and priorities) I read a mention of "shock loading" which state conventional oils do this better and that it is important in some applications.
Maybe why the reason for semi syn in some high performance engines? Marine Engines?
Are "Larrys" charts (we all know his charts in here) *LOL* correct? Showing all different size molecules of conventional vs syn in his diagrams? *LOL* I think so and I look at it as a positive vs his negative.

As far as your bike and staying in grade, you do know I owned shared sump bikes. I could not agree with you more, been there, done that and always looked for the oil that would hold shift quality up.
Btw - I Think I mentioned someplace. I was a little uneasy hearing slightly more engine noise with the M1 BUT I was expecting it and I knew that noise wasnt because of more wear, at least that was what I was hoping and the UOA proved that true. But still, its just a noise you dont like to hear *LOL*
I would use it if it had held up better then the JT8, oh heck, maybe someday I will. Lets just call an Ace an Ace. 2000 miles and that viscosity was low. As you know I dont care where it started, I dont buy the oil for starting point. Except for the 50wt, maybe it would have leveled out at that number and I would be ok with it, Ill never know now, as I said, wish I got 3000 miles on it, instead of 2000. At the same time that wear number was REALLY nice ... so we will see. Its just now I have so much JT8 which I bought before the UOA as I like the way the bike sounded better with the JT8, But I do have other uses as I use it in the boat as well ... soooo... who knows... then again, if it doesnt make much difference maybe the more luxurious sounding JT8 is the right oil. :eek:)

^^ The above is just my thoughts of the morning^^
 
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