Mobil 1 -Fe Explained (R.T. Vanderbilt)

buster · Mar 29, 2004

http://www.rtvanderbilt.com/news_19.htm

This link discusses how good of a Anti-wear agent Boron is and how what we are seeing with Mobil 1, isn't 100% wear. What it looks like is the Borate Ester turns into an Iron Borate after plating. So what we sometimes see, depending on the particular engine which may use different metals, is the borate, not Fe wear. "Their are many types of iron to that have to be considered such as proferal iron billets cams , heat inducted iron , ductile iron -steel billet , steel billet roller cams etc. The same deal with sleeves with varying degrees of nickel content in the fitted sleeves used in aluminum blocks to actual casted iron blocks." It's only common sense to that different chemistries react differently with different metals, hence, different UOA's. So the lack of ZDP with Mobil 1 in my opinion is a non-issue.

Motorbike brought this up before and made a very good point but it was over looked. Also note how only in certain engines, the Fe is high meaning the metals being used in the cylinders plays a key role.

[ March 29, 2004, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

goodvibes · Mar 29, 2004

The ZDDP level may well be a non issue but I fail to see how that link explains the elevated FE levels. If you extrapolate that the plating effect is releasing some FE from the engines surface, shouldn't the FE levels drop in subsequent UOAs once plated and boron uptake stops? It doesn't seem to. Does it matter if this is the cause of elevated FE if it keeps happening on every fill (unlikely)? Loss is loss. Shoot, I wouldn't have understood what I just said 9 mo. ago. Thanks for all the info guys.

Doug Hillary · Mar 29, 2004

Hi Buster,

good comments!

That is simply another reason why the sometimes emotional comments on minor ppm movements and without historical trending on UOAs render them fun and just a conversational topic.
Reality in terms of engine wear and lubricant protection is another issue!

This is especially so when doing short duration UOAs on different oils

Keep up the good work Buster!!!

Regards

like a rock · Mar 29, 2004

Thanks, very good information. And how can redline oil show low iron levels and higher than expected lead wear? With more complex oil such as M-1 and redline it may be hard to look at the raw numbers of a uoa without expert interpretation from Terry Dyson. Each engine could be different.

haley10 · Mar 29, 2004

Thanks for the info. I was surprized that my 1st uoa on M1 did not show really high iron at all, even though I have an iron block and heads. Of course, I'd run another synthetic previously for a long time. I was expecting to see high iron, but didn't. Maybe there simply wasn't anything for the M1 boron to do?

Last_Z · Mar 29, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Doug Hillary:
Hi Buster,

good comments!

That is simply another reason why the sometimes emotional comments on minor ppm movements and without historical trending on UOAs render them fun and just a conversational topic.
Reality in terms of engine wear and lubricant protection is another issue!

This is especially so when doing short duration UOAs on different oils

Keep up the good work Buster!!!

Regards

Good post buster! Terry has said something similar happens with Redline and that is the reason it "shows" elevated wear.

Doug,

Hi!....I'm glad you dropped by since I've been meaning to ask you something since you Oz guys sort of believe and/or use thicker oils all the time. From your experience and tests, what do you think is the "optimum" viscosity for the regular passenger vehicle? I've noticed you have high regards for Delvac 1 and use it in many of your vehicles...and as you know, it is a mid 40W.
Thanks in advance!

Rick

Schmoe · Mar 29, 2004

I remember that comment from Motorbike and responded. But you are correct, it did get overlooked. In fact from reading that information back then, I have not even thought twice about any UOA's I get back showing higher than normal iron.

Doug Hillary · Mar 30, 2004

Hi,

Last Z - I used Castrol's R 10w-60 synthetic for many years - from about 1979 (then 10w-50)until about 1998
Since then I have used Castrol RX Super 15-40, GC SLX 0w-30, Mobil 1 10w-30, 0w-40 and 15w-50
And a great product Shell Helix Ultra synthetic 15w-50 (now discontinued for 5w-40)

For me Delvac 1 5w-40 is the best of all worlds but I would use M1 0w-40 if I could not access Del 1

So for me a 0w or 5w-40 will be my on-going choice. I operate in ambient temps from -7C to 43C but mostly in the Tropics

Regards
Doug

Shannow · Mar 30, 2004

Similarly, I've settled on xW-40 for all of my cars, and those of friends/family that I maintain.

buster · Mar 30, 2004

It is just a theory,and as you can see from the link, has some validity. I thank Motorbike for raising this point.

It's really hard to peg some of these UOA's in what is exactly wear, why it's occuring and other variables. It almost seems that certain oils work better with certain engines. Amsoil seems to do better with GM engines then Mobil 1. Mobil 1 works well in German engines etc. In the end, it's important to realize you won't wear any engine out using any of these oils or any oil for that matter.

Last_Z · Mar 30, 2004

Doug, Shannow,
Thanks for the replies! I'm trying M1 15W-50 as soon as my ARX rinsing phase is over. The weather here ranges from high 20*F on up to over 100*F. I want to see what this oil can do in my car.

BTW Doug.....I think I already told you once.....You're a pretty cool dude (aka, mate)

Rick

Doug Hillary · Mar 30, 2004

Hi,

Last_Z - thanks man!

I have just visited the local Ford Dealer

Their latest hot "BOSS 290" 5 litre alloy V8 uses Castrol 'R" synthetic 0w-40 as a factory fill

The rest of the local and imported range of Fords use either 5w-30 or 10w-30 oil

I thought this may be of interest

Mobil's M1 SuperSyn is available here as a 5w-50 or a 15w-50 and has a great reputation

Regards
Doug

Shannow · Mar 30, 2004

Doug,
I was at the Mobil depot today picking up some of that European "turbodiesel oil" that meets CF only (M1 0W-40).

I noticed that they had gone from a case of 6 single litre bottles of 0W-40 a year ago to three cases of 5 litre bottles, and a few 20L drums.

Apparently the local ford dealer uses it in the new V-8s.

They've got the 10W-30 for the Holdens......and even stock Delvac 1 now.

Leo · Mar 30, 2004

I'd like to see Molakules take on this!

Losiho · Mar 30, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Shannow:
Doug,
I was at the Mobil depot today picking up some of that European "turbodiesel oil" that meets CF only (M1 0W-40).

I noticed that they had gone from a case of 6 single litre bottles of 0W-40 a year ago to three cases of 5 litre bottles, and a few 20L drums.

I recently purchased both the new Mobil 1 10w30 Super Syn and 0w40 SS in 5L bottles from my local Mobil servo (flashy new Gold Super Syn bottles too !

) . Cheaper than my local auto parts store too, who only carry 5w50.

Doug Hillary · Mar 30, 2004

Hi,

Mobil need a real lesson in Public Relations and Marketing!!

The 3x5ltr of Delvac 1 etc will either not be broken up by some Dealers, or at others, only for an extra "margin"

Like about $171 for 3x5ltr or $70 per 5ltr!

Some people have simply walked away! I would too!!!

Regards

TooSlick · Mar 30, 2004

Amsoil uses boron in their 0w-30/5w-30/10w-30 formulations and all three consistently generate low levels of iron ....The 3MP test is an excellent illustration of this fact.

Delvac 1, 5w-40 also uses boron and generates low levels of iron in comparison to Mobil 1.

There is nothing wrong with Mobil 1 that using a higher molecular weight basestock and more ZDDP wouldn't cure ...

It's a nice theory, but it has little or no technical merit.... If a plating action were occuring, continued use of Mobil 1 would result in a significant reduction in iron levels. This simply doesn't happen in pushrod engines that generate high concentrations of iron....

Tooslick

Motorbike · Mar 30, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:

It's a nice theory, but it has little or no technical merit.... If a plating action were occuring, continued use of Mobil 1 would result in a significant reduction in iron levels. This simply doesn't happen in pushrod engines that generate high concentrations of iron....

Tooslick

If the type borate ester that turned into an iron borate after plating was constantly used time after time in an engine and it's formulated oil the iron element would certainly keep showing up as an element through analyisis . This element that could be swiped off the cylinders wall for example would not be indicitive of total Fe cylinder wear . Whats happening is the iron borate is being constanly introduced into the engine .

If one put a teaspoon of dirt into an engine every oil change I don't think Si or insoluables would ever diminish after time

It's not been confirmed this type borate is even whats used in the SS . But if it is , what makes one so certain it's the type also used in the Delvac 1 and Amsoil ?

A good example of this iron borate is the reduced FE in the Chevy 5.3 when switching from M1 to a low cost dino without boron . Same amount of zinc both oils . High zinc amount is not a cureall nor is a lower amount a cause-all

Starting to get the idea ?

Also , one cannot compare one engine to another due to the metalurgy when speaking of camshafts . The Jeep 4.0 and the cams used in a newer Mazda is as far apart as it gets in that regard .

Early 4.6 Fords show lower Fe generally than the newer 2000 year models and up . Either the metallurgy of the sleeves have been changed or heat cycling affects later in life .

There is alot about additives used in these various oils and formulations we will never know here at BITOG until the chemists that work for companies and actually make these various additives and are involved in initial and long term testing start posting in answer to individual ultra specific questions here which at this point seems unlikely

We don't even know for sure who uses RT Vanderbilts additives and that may or may not be propritory anyway .

[ March 31, 2004, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]

buster · Mar 31, 2004

quote:

Amsoil uses boron in their 0w-30/5w-30/10w-30 formulations

Amsoil is only using about 30ppm of Boron though and ZDP for the rest of the AW package.

And to quote what G-MAN II said

quote:

Amsoil may still be using esters in the base oil blend, but the way they build their oils is still "yesterday's news," utilizing a basic two-pronged approach to EP/AW. Since they are not concerned with having to meet the API mandated reduction in phos, they can continue to build their oils with tons of ZDDP to attain acceptable EP/AW numbers. Mobil doesn't have this luxury, hence their approach to EP/AW is more "advanced" than Amsoil's.

It's entirely different chemistry reacting with different metals in different engines. I believe this is why we see certain oils excel in different engines. Agree?

Bottom line to what I'm saying is all three oils, Redline, Amsoil and M1 use very different chemistries. So you can't always assume they will react the same way with all engines.

[ March 31, 2004, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

Doug Hillary · Mar 31, 2004

Hi,
Buster & Motorbike - keep it up I'm on your tram!

Ted - OHC engines can generate high levels of iron too. This is not an exclusive to push rod engines!

Until we get over the "emotion" of 1ppm extra ???of one oil brand or UOA over another we will not help people on here to understand their insignificance in real terms

The 3MP test is showing this in the most basic of ways!

Buster & Motorbike - Please keep up the good work so that other people on here can get a pragmatic viewpoint!!!

Regards

[ March 31, 2004, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]

Mobil 1 -Fe Explained (R.T. Vanderbilt)

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