http://www.camaros.net/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=012164
Sounds like BS to me. What do you guys think?
Mobil 1 and flat tappets... is the cam guy wrong?
- Thread starter novadude
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Sounds like BS to me. What do you guys think?
I am a big fan of comp cams camshafts. I have used synthetic oils with them for years with no problems. Total BS. I have heard the same crap from cam tech guys concerning roller cams.
Pure BS! Have used flat tappet cams and M1 for a couple years in my 360 SBC with no ill effects. Teardowns revealed typical wear patterns from the lifters.
BTW, that is not my engine. I stumbled upon that, and thought it would make for good discussion among the "oil heads" here.
What a total non-sequiter! In the first part of the sentence he says it is too slick, and the latter part he says it isn't slick enough.
There must be millions of cars with Mobil 1 and non-roller cams, with no huge outcry about cam failures. If this were true, it would have happened years ago, when there were more non-roller cams and (presumably) Mobil 1 was less advanced.
A clever way to blame something else rhan your product. Now what would he say if you said you wererunning Pennzoil purebase dino oil??Maybe it would be the wrong color???
Nascar Nextel Cup cars use flat tappet cams by rule and a lot of them use Mobil 1 oil. And with the radical cam profiles and rpms they are running, the stresses at the lobe/lifter interface are very high. Ask them if they are supplying anybody in Nextel Cup and what oil they use......
I do not know about COmp Cams but I am not a fan of Cran Cams! THeir 22RE cam and valve spring kit lasted me about a year in a non-race vechile. Two lobes disintagrated. I had no lifter in the vechile at all. It is OHC and I was running Syntec 5W50 back when it was still a true synthetic. THe cam followers were in perfect shape even on the lopes that disintergrated.
One of theASTM tests uses a buick 3.8 with flat tappets in place of the roller tappets and roller rockers are replaced with non roller as well.THe corvettes runs a roller cam with full rooler valve train. It was validated with M1. So it would appear that M1 is fine. The theory that friction modifers will not allow a roller rocker to rotate under load comes to use from the commercial diesel industry. M1 would not be used in any of their engines anyway. THe loading a diesel roller rocker see's and the RPM's is vastly different then what we see in a car.
TO be honest I am guesiing that you would need to run double or tripple valve springs with a radical ramp angle on a gasser to aproach the loading on a diesels valvetrain. I am sure their is a good diesel tech. on here that can give more specifics and correct any mistakes I have made!
[ June 16, 2004, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
One of theASTM tests uses a buick 3.8 with flat tappets in place of the roller tappets and roller rockers are replaced with non roller as well.THe corvettes runs a roller cam with full rooler valve train. It was validated with M1. So it would appear that M1 is fine. The theory that friction modifers will not allow a roller rocker to rotate under load comes to use from the commercial diesel industry. M1 would not be used in any of their engines anyway. THe loading a diesel roller rocker see's and the RPM's is vastly different then what we see in a car.
TO be honest I am guesiing that you would need to run double or tripple valve springs with a radical ramp angle on a gasser to aproach the loading on a diesels valvetrain. I am sure their is a good diesel tech. on here that can give more specifics and correct any mistakes I have made!
[ June 16, 2004, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
BTW I run the comp cam "muscle car blueprint" Ram Air III in my '77 Trans am w/ Comps 1.52 rollers and arms..car had been on Castrol 10W-40, was thinking of Delvac or Delo (same price and cheaper than Penzoil or Rotella locally) but, never used "diesel oil" in a gas motor, since this car sits and only driven 2K miles a year w/ annual oil/filter change is diesel oil/synthetic/high mileage/plain ol' dino the best??...IMO really doubt M1 would cause probs, in fact I'd think the opposite...for what it's worth...
Couldn't possibly be a metallurgy or heat treat problem. Mobil 1 is "too slick"?? Ridiculous.
Sounds like a good way to buffalo people out of warranty claims.
There are some dino's that are actually "slicker" than M1. It's called lubricity and is influenced by additives perhaps more than the base oil.
If I were making a warranty claim, I wouldn't be stonwalled by that lame argument.
Sounds like a good way to buffalo people out of warranty claims.
There are some dino's that are actually "slicker" than M1. It's called lubricity and is influenced by additives perhaps more than the base oil.
If I were making a warranty claim, I wouldn't be stonwalled by that lame argument.
His advice is spot on!
Mobil 1 here in Australia has a reputation for being a Dangerous choice amongst racers with V8 engines. It's a Fact that Mobil make an booster Pack exclusively for all the Sponsored teams using it in there V8's, because of massive Camshaft ware through the high lifts push Rod V8 engines produce with out it.
I think the biggest plus for Mineral oils are there is no risk of having Rolla rocker ware like what has happen with Synthetic oils (despite simulated Lab tests showing a higher level of ware protection than Mineral Oils) again in the Push Rod V8 engine design
Just to list a few comments I have come across: Even Crower Cranks make a comment in there FAQ section on there web site, that the possible ware and damage effects of Synthetic oils in V8 engines far out way the slight HP gains and only recommend the use of quality mineral.
A major Cam company in Aust, also strongly advises against the use of Synthetic oils with there Cams.
Just yesterday I spoke with both Castrol and Valvoline about a recommendation for an engine and both said don't touch Synthetic's if your using Rolla rockers or a Rolla cam.
Let's see: The Corvette LS1 has a roller cam and comes factory filled with Mobil 1. Castrol states on their bottles of Syntec 5w30 and 10w30 that it meets the GM spec for Corvettes.
This stuff about not using synthetics with roller cams is total BS. Period.
Novadude, sorry to hear about your camshaft problems, been there. If you call any camshaft company, most if not all will say "do not use synthetic motor oil on a flat tappet camshaft for the initial break in," (30 minutes), then recheck the lash, especially with a high performance stick and change the oil/filter. Most agree at this point you should be able then to run a synthetic oil. I've read previously on other websites that comp cams had a batch of cams (year or so ago) that had quality issues and were scrubbing lobes and some were replaced on warranty.
Here is a post I found on chevy talk forum, some different idea's..
Hello,
.
I have a fresh 454 with a Comp Cam 280H hydraulic cam and kit. I used all the break-in tricks: throughly lubed cam and lifters with Comp Cam lube, added a bottle of GM E.O.S. (break-in lube), primed oiling system while slowly turning motor over by hand. Fired the motor, ran @ 2500 r.p.m. for 30 minutes. Shut down, checked torques on outside parts, repeated break-in time. Shut down, changed oil and filter, etc.
.
Now motor has about 4 or 5 hours easy driving time, and suddenly #2 cylinder goes dead. After checking spark, etc. pulled right side valve cover. Front pushrod (#2 - ext.) bent and broken, lifter kicked up out of bore. On further inspection, found #2 intake lobe almost flat and lifter badly cupped. I called Comp Cam and they ask me to send it back and there's a good chance they'll replace it.
.
Here's my question: Now that the motor is this far down, should I attempt to "flush" the oiling system with (?) kerosene, etc? I drained the oil and cut open the filter. I don't see any obvious "metal". should I try to "flush" the oiling system, or just clean everything up good and button it back up?
.
I know that these things sometimes just happen, so I have am trying to be patient and thorough. I just don't want to have to go thru all this again.
.
ANY THOUGHTS WILL BE APPRECIATED ! !
.
--------------------
Robbie - -"TooOld.."
.!
Post Extras:
SteveStreeter
Old as Dirt Member
Reged: 01/19/01
Posts: 7420
Loc: Kettle Falls, WA. USA
Re: NEW 454 Cam has a flat lobe - WHAT NEXT? [Re: To
ld_For_This]
#861241 - 06/13/04 02:32 PM Edit Reply Quote
I find it amazing that Comp will give you a new ca and lifters. Hats off to their personal relations department.
I say this because I know what does this. The bent push rod tells on the machine shop where you had the work done.
Here are the things that make cams go flat so quick when proper break-in was followed:
1) Valve train interference
2) Tight valve guides
3) non-rotating lifters
4) Contaminated block
The bent push rod says, either #1 or #2. If it is slightly bent, say 1/8", the most likely cause is #1. If it is off by more than that, It's most likely a valve guide was not reamed properly.
UNLESS it is #4;
Contaminated blocks let the engine oil carry these particles to the tight clearances. This binds lifters in their bores and valves in guides.
I would want to find out exactly what caused the problem in order to prevent a recurrence.
#1 could be coil bind as the cam you have has too much lift for stock springs. Also, you may have interference between the retainer and the valve guide. If positive stem seals were used on the valve guides, interference could be enhanced at the seal to retainer.
If the lifter were not rotating, the push rod would not likely have been bent.
So look at the valve stems in that hole and at the top of the guides. If these look good, you have coil bind on your springs.
--------------------
Steve
Reged: 04/21/02
Posts: 1197
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Re: NEW 454 Cam has a flat lobe - WHAT NEXT? [Re: Told_For_This]
#861592 - 06/13/04 08:41 PM Edit Reply Quote
Could it be caused by something like this, only worse?
If Comp Cams is going to replace it, I'd guess they might be aware of a problem they've had recently.
Post Extras:
SteveStreeter
Old as Dirt Member
Reged: 01/19/01
Posts: 7420
Loc: Kettle Falls, WA. USA
Re: NEW 454 Cam has a flat lobe - WHAT NEXT? [Re: Carnut427]
#861691 - 06/13/04 10:56 PM Edit Reply Quote
Flat cams don't bend push rods.
Extreme pressure bends push rods.
The only way you can put this back together and still sleep at night, is to tear it apart and do a [clean and inspection] on the whole engine. Find the exact cause. Then you can rest easy.
--------------------
Steve
Post Extras:
new2novas
Platinum Supporting Member
Reged: 03/31/03
Posts: 1025
Loc: Philadelphia
Re: NEW 454 Cam has a flat lobe - WHAT NEXT? [Re: SteveStreeter]
#861717 - 06/13/04 11:48 PM Edit Reply Quote
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only way you can put this back together and still sleep at night, is to tear it apart and do a [clean and inspection] on the whole engine. Find the exact cause. Then you can rest easy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if it were mine i'd have it no other way. and at this point i will never buy a comp cam, there have been a ton of people having problems with them going flat, i suspect this is the reason for their "good customer relations". but it seems like this may be due to something other than their cam hardening process, as it was only the one lobe. i guess well see.....keep updated as well
Hello,
.
I have a fresh 454 with a Comp Cam 280H hydraulic cam and kit. I used all the break-in tricks: throughly lubed cam and lifters with Comp Cam lube, added a bottle of GM E.O.S. (break-in lube), primed oiling system while slowly turning motor over by hand. Fired the motor, ran @ 2500 r.p.m. for 30 minutes. Shut down, checked torques on outside parts, repeated break-in time. Shut down, changed oil and filter, etc.
.
Now motor has about 4 or 5 hours easy driving time, and suddenly #2 cylinder goes dead. After checking spark, etc. pulled right side valve cover. Front pushrod (#2 - ext.) bent and broken, lifter kicked up out of bore. On further inspection, found #2 intake lobe almost flat and lifter badly cupped. I called Comp Cam and they ask me to send it back and there's a good chance they'll replace it.
.
Here's my question: Now that the motor is this far down, should I attempt to "flush" the oiling system with (?) kerosene, etc? I drained the oil and cut open the filter. I don't see any obvious "metal". should I try to "flush" the oiling system, or just clean everything up good and button it back up?
.
I know that these things sometimes just happen, so I have am trying to be patient and thorough. I just don't want to have to go thru all this again.
.
ANY THOUGHTS WILL BE APPRECIATED ! !
.
--------------------
Robbie - -"TooOld.."
.!
Post Extras:
SteveStreeter
Old as Dirt Member
Reged: 01/19/01
Posts: 7420
Loc: Kettle Falls, WA. USA
Re: NEW 454 Cam has a flat lobe - WHAT NEXT? [Re: To
ld_For_This] #861241 - 06/13/04 02:32 PM Edit Reply Quote
I find it amazing that Comp will give you a new ca and lifters. Hats off to their personal relations department.
I say this because I know what does this. The bent push rod tells on the machine shop where you had the work done.
Here are the things that make cams go flat so quick when proper break-in was followed:
1) Valve train interference
2) Tight valve guides
3) non-rotating lifters
4) Contaminated block
The bent push rod says, either #1 or #2. If it is slightly bent, say 1/8", the most likely cause is #1. If it is off by more than that, It's most likely a valve guide was not reamed properly.
UNLESS it is #4;
Contaminated blocks let the engine oil carry these particles to the tight clearances. This binds lifters in their bores and valves in guides.
I would want to find out exactly what caused the problem in order to prevent a recurrence.
#1 could be coil bind as the cam you have has too much lift for stock springs. Also, you may have interference between the retainer and the valve guide. If positive stem seals were used on the valve guides, interference could be enhanced at the seal to retainer.
If the lifter were not rotating, the push rod would not likely have been bent.
So look at the valve stems in that hole and at the top of the guides. If these look good, you have coil bind on your springs.
--------------------
Steve
Reged: 04/21/02
Posts: 1197
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Re: NEW 454 Cam has a flat lobe - WHAT NEXT? [Re: To
ld_For_This] #861592 - 06/13/04 08:41 PM Edit Reply Quote
Could it be caused by something like this, only worse?
If Comp Cams is going to replace it, I'd guess they might be aware of a problem they've had recently.
Post Extras:
SteveStreeter
Old as Dirt Member
Reged: 01/19/01
Posts: 7420
Loc: Kettle Falls, WA. USA
Re: NEW 454 Cam has a flat lobe - WHAT NEXT? [Re: Carnut427]
#861691 - 06/13/04 10:56 PM Edit Reply Quote
Flat cams don't bend push rods.
Extreme pressure bends push rods.
The only way you can put this back together and still sleep at night, is to tear it apart and do a [clean and inspection] on the whole engine. Find the exact cause. Then you can rest easy.
--------------------
Steve
Post Extras:
new2novas
Platinum Supporting Member
Reged: 03/31/03
Posts: 1025
Loc: Philadelphia
Re: NEW 454 Cam has a flat lobe - WHAT NEXT? [Re: SteveStreeter]
#861717 - 06/13/04 11:48 PM Edit Reply Quote
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only way you can put this back together and still sleep at night, is to tear it apart and do a [clean and inspection] on the whole engine. Find the exact cause. Then you can rest easy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if it were mine i'd have it no other way. and at this point i will never buy a comp cam, there have been a ton of people having problems with them going flat, i suspect this is the reason for their "good customer relations". but it seems like this may be due to something other than their cam hardening process, as it was only the one lobe. i guess well see.....keep updated as well
I have Comp Cams XE262H on my 2000 Crown Vic (4.6L SOHC V8).
The biggest problem with the Comp Cams on modular motors is the piston to valve clearance.
A LOT of Mustang owners like that lopey idle, so they go with an extreme cam like XE270AH or XE278AH... there's too much exhaust duration and too much valve lift to use with flat tops and even dished pistons. You have to cut valve reliefs into the edge of the piston so there is no PTV contact.
And yes, PTV contact CAN bend a valve! Sometimes you may not notice this below 4000 RPM or so, and above that - the rods can stretch a few mm and bang...
There's a lot of issues with CompCams if you do a search, but most of it is due to incorrect recommendations by the Cam maker (I have such and such piston, engine, can I use such and such cam? YES....
)
Dennis Miles from CC told me that XE262Hs are perfectly fine for a stock 4.6L SOHC V8. These are replacements for the stock NPI cams... .500/.500 valve lift, etc...
I have not heard anything weird from the motor other than intake growl from my retrofitted PI intake, injector ticking, and a possible exhaust leak (sounds like I blew apart a factory weld somewhere).
For OHV motors, you have a variety of choices. For Ford Modular motors, we have a choice of SHM, VT Engines, and Comp Cams. There are going to be others - everyone's pushing for the Ford Mod Motor cam market now.
A few years back, no one gave a rat's a$$ but now that people are making cams and seeing Mustang owners snatch them up like hot cakes, the market will grow.
The biggest problem with the Comp Cams on modular motors is the piston to valve clearance.
A LOT of Mustang owners like that lopey idle, so they go with an extreme cam like XE270AH or XE278AH... there's too much exhaust duration and too much valve lift to use with flat tops and even dished pistons. You have to cut valve reliefs into the edge of the piston so there is no PTV contact.
And yes, PTV contact CAN bend a valve! Sometimes you may not notice this below 4000 RPM or so, and above that - the rods can stretch a few mm and bang...
There's a lot of issues with CompCams if you do a search, but most of it is due to incorrect recommendations by the Cam maker (I have such and such piston, engine, can I use such and such cam? YES....
Dennis Miles from CC told me that XE262Hs are perfectly fine for a stock 4.6L SOHC V8. These are replacements for the stock NPI cams... .500/.500 valve lift, etc...
I have not heard anything weird from the motor other than intake growl from my retrofitted PI intake, injector ticking, and a possible exhaust leak (sounds like I blew apart a factory weld somewhere).
For OHV motors, you have a variety of choices. For Ford Modular motors, we have a choice of SHM, VT Engines, and Comp Cams. There are going to be others - everyone's pushing for the Ford Mod Motor cam market now.
A few years back, no one gave a rat's a$$ but now that people are making cams and seeing Mustang owners snatch them up like hot cakes, the market will grow.
BTW
I have talked to lubrication experts at work and they say that M1 and other synthetics (even Group IIIs) seep out of seals, gaskets, etc... a lot more readily than non-synthetic oils.
I've been using M1 5W-30 in a 5.4L SOHC V8 for about 8000 miles ( the engine only has 8000 miles) and there's a thin oil stain below the cam covers... the M1 seeps out of the elastomer gaskets very slowly.
I do not know how well they stick to metals, but I can tell you that Chevron Supreme 5W-30 was one of the best dino oils I ever used based on how well the oil didn't burn off while drag racing, and how my engine sounded during the summer and winter.
I have talked to lubrication experts at work and they say that M1 and other synthetics (even Group IIIs) seep out of seals, gaskets, etc... a lot more readily than non-synthetic oils.
I've been using M1 5W-30 in a 5.4L SOHC V8 for about 8000 miles ( the engine only has 8000 miles) and there's a thin oil stain below the cam covers... the M1 seeps out of the elastomer gaskets very slowly.
I do not know how well they stick to metals, but I can tell you that Chevron Supreme 5W-30 was one of the best dino oils I ever used based on how well the oil didn't burn off while drag racing, and how my engine sounded during the summer and winter.
Thanks, but this is not my cam. I came across this on another board, and put it here for discussion, since I thought it was a bit ridiculous for Comp to say "no syn oil".
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