Based on our experiences, the ESP Formula M 5w40 is superior to 0w40 in our e320 cdi. However, ESP oils tend to have less TBN, and therefore do not work well with high-ethanol-content US gasoline. This is the reason MB revoked the recommendation to use 229.51 oils in gasoline vehicles in the United States.
Mobil 1 5w40 ESP Formula M vs 0w40...
- Thread starter opposite_locker
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: opposite_locker
Based on our experiences, the ESP Formula M 5w40 is superior to 0w40 in our e320 cdi. However, ESP oils tend to have less TBN, and therefore do not work well with high-ethanol-content US gasoline. This is the reason MB revoked the recommendation to use 229.51 oils in gasoline vehicles in the United States.
Interesting..thanks
Based on our experiences, the ESP Formula M 5w40 is superior to 0w40 in our e320 cdi. However, ESP oils tend to have less TBN, and therefore do not work well with high-ethanol-content US gasoline. This is the reason MB revoked the recommendation to use 229.51 oils in gasoline vehicles in the United States.
Interesting..thanks
Originally Posted By: opposite_locker
Based on our experiences, the ESP Formula M 5w40 is superior to 0w40 in our e320 cdi. However, ESP oils tend to have less TBN, and therefore do not work well with high-ethanol-content US gasoline. This is the reason MB revoked the recommendation to use 229.51 oils in gasoline vehicles in the United States.
I can't help but wonder why the latest European auto manufacturer oil specifications wouldn't be capable of dealing with E10 blends. All gasoline-fueled European automobiles have been E10 compatible since 2000. In fact, mandatory EU-wide usage of bio-fuels is less than two years off.
Based on our experiences, the ESP Formula M 5w40 is superior to 0w40 in our e320 cdi. However, ESP oils tend to have less TBN, and therefore do not work well with high-ethanol-content US gasoline. This is the reason MB revoked the recommendation to use 229.51 oils in gasoline vehicles in the United States.
I can't help but wonder why the latest European auto manufacturer oil specifications wouldn't be capable of dealing with E10 blends. All gasoline-fueled European automobiles have been E10 compatible since 2000. In fact, mandatory EU-wide usage of bio-fuels is less than two years off.
Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
and Chrysler was switching to a Pennzoil product in the future. No idea if any of this is true.
The folks who were able to buy it off the shelf at Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Sprinter dealerships were paying $9-11/liter.
just called two Chrysler dealers one gave me a crazy price of $140($11 qt)case 5w30,the other one said they can't get it amymore because Chrysler switch over to Pennzoil,and thats what they send them?,go figure.
Did they indicate what the Pennzoil product was?
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
and Chrysler was switching to a Pennzoil product in the future. No idea if any of this is true.
The folks who were able to buy it off the shelf at Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Sprinter dealerships were paying $9-11/liter.
just called two Chrysler dealers one gave me a crazy price of $140($11 qt)case 5w30,the other one said they can't get it amymore because Chrysler switch over to Pennzoil,and thats what they send them?,go figure.
Did they indicate what the Pennzoil product was?
Originally Posted By: rshunter
Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
and Chrysler was switching to a Pennzoil product in the future. No idea if any of this is true.
The folks who were able to buy it off the shelf at Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Sprinter dealerships were paying $9-11/liter.
just called two Chrysler dealers one gave me a crazy price of $140($11 qt)case 5w30,the other one said they can't get it amymore because Chrysler switch over to Pennzoil,and thats what they send them?,go figure.
Did they indicate what the Pennzoil product was?
No he didn't,he kinda rushed me off the phone.
Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
and Chrysler was switching to a Pennzoil product in the future. No idea if any of this is true.
The folks who were able to buy it off the shelf at Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Sprinter dealerships were paying $9-11/liter.
just called two Chrysler dealers one gave me a crazy price of $140($11 qt)case 5w30,the other one said they can't get it amymore because Chrysler switch over to Pennzoil,and thats what they send them?,go figure.
Did they indicate what the Pennzoil product was?
No he didn't,he kinda rushed me off the phone.
Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: rshunter
Did they indicate what the Pennzoil product was?
No he didn't,he kinda rushed me off the phone.
I think I'm going to have to make a call tomorrow and see what I can find out from the guys I do business with.
Originally Posted By: rshunter
Did they indicate what the Pennzoil product was?
No he didn't,he kinda rushed me off the phone.
I think I'm going to have to make a call tomorrow and see what I can find out from the guys I do business with.
if i heard him right he could order both 5w30 and 40 in ESP.
Originally Posted By: rshunter
I can't help but wonder why the latest European auto manufacturer oil specifications wouldn't be capable of dealing with E10 blends. All gasoline-fueled European automobiles have been E10 compatible since 2000. In fact, mandatory EU-wide usage of bio-fuels is less than two years off.
I don't think it's an ethanol issue. IIRC, it's an issue with US gasoline having too much sulfur.
I can't help but wonder why the latest European auto manufacturer oil specifications wouldn't be capable of dealing with E10 blends. All gasoline-fueled European automobiles have been E10 compatible since 2000. In fact, mandatory EU-wide usage of bio-fuels is less than two years off.
I don't think it's an ethanol issue. IIRC, it's an issue with US gasoline having too much sulfur.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: rshunter
I can't help but wonder why the latest European auto manufacturer oil specifications wouldn't be capable of dealing with E10 blends. All gasoline-fueled European automobiles have been E10 compatible since 2000. In fact, mandatory EU-wide usage of bio-fuels is less than two years off.
I don't think it's an ethanol issue. IIRC, it's an issue with US gasoline having too much sulfur.
The sulfur issue is one which hasn't existed for some time, despite the fact that others have continued to impress it upon others. Here is an example (with the name redacted since I won't use it to cast aspersions on another member) of what I mean, with my references showing that the sulfur levels are not what they are often posited as being...
Originally Posted By: rshunter
Originally Posted By: ######
I had a ongoing discussion with a member here trying to explain why the gasoline engines still require 502.00 only to be rudely dismissed with typical shop floor knowledge. The 502.00 is kept in North America because of the high sulfur content of the gasoline sold here. The low SAPS 504.00 does not perform well when dealing with 300+ PPM sulfur fuels.
Apparently, I'm the guy with the "shop floor knowledge" who "rudely dismissed" the assertion that 504.00 oils would "not perform well when dealing with 300+ PPM sulfur fuels". This was after questioning the validity of the very claim seen here, that we are provided with fuels containing sulfur limits of 300-1000 PPM.
All I can say is that I pointed out that the figures you were citing were referencing sulfur content by percentage of weight. You suggested that I should "do the math" to get the PPM figures. The only problem with your theory is that simply calculating out hundredths of a percent, by weight, does not give you PPM, by volume.
As to your continuing assertion of high gasoline sulfur levels, and that I haven't a clue what I'm speaking of, I'd suggest you get your facts straight before "trying to explain" them to anyone. Spreading falsehoods does nothing to contribute to the knowledge available on this site.
Here is the current Code of Federal Regulations requirements for gasoline sulfur levels... http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/tex....8.48.3&idno=40 as provided by the Government Printing Office. I don't know how you can get a more authoritative source than this, when it comes to what the requirements are. If you've got one, I'm sure we'd all be happy to see it.
You'll notice that the "Refinery or Importer Average" limit is 30 PPM, precisely as I have asserted. The "Per-Gallon Cap" is 80 PPM, as stated by bruno, which allows for potential fuel contamination during transport. These limits have been in effect for more than three years.
So, how does this affect your ongoing statements that 504.00 oils can't deal with the US market's "300+ PPM sulfur fuels"?
Originally Posted By: rshunter
I can't help but wonder why the latest European auto manufacturer oil specifications wouldn't be capable of dealing with E10 blends. All gasoline-fueled European automobiles have been E10 compatible since 2000. In fact, mandatory EU-wide usage of bio-fuels is less than two years off.
I don't think it's an ethanol issue. IIRC, it's an issue with US gasoline having too much sulfur.
The sulfur issue is one which hasn't existed for some time, despite the fact that others have continued to impress it upon others. Here is an example (with the name redacted since I won't use it to cast aspersions on another member) of what I mean, with my references showing that the sulfur levels are not what they are often posited as being...
Originally Posted By: rshunter
Originally Posted By: ######
I had a ongoing discussion with a member here trying to explain why the gasoline engines still require 502.00 only to be rudely dismissed with typical shop floor knowledge. The 502.00 is kept in North America because of the high sulfur content of the gasoline sold here. The low SAPS 504.00 does not perform well when dealing with 300+ PPM sulfur fuels.
Apparently, I'm the guy with the "shop floor knowledge" who "rudely dismissed" the assertion that 504.00 oils would "not perform well when dealing with 300+ PPM sulfur fuels". This was after questioning the validity of the very claim seen here, that we are provided with fuels containing sulfur limits of 300-1000 PPM.
All I can say is that I pointed out that the figures you were citing were referencing sulfur content by percentage of weight. You suggested that I should "do the math" to get the PPM figures. The only problem with your theory is that simply calculating out hundredths of a percent, by weight, does not give you PPM, by volume.
As to your continuing assertion of high gasoline sulfur levels, and that I haven't a clue what I'm speaking of, I'd suggest you get your facts straight before "trying to explain" them to anyone. Spreading falsehoods does nothing to contribute to the knowledge available on this site.
Here is the current Code of Federal Regulations requirements for gasoline sulfur levels... http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/tex....8.48.3&idno=40 as provided by the Government Printing Office. I don't know how you can get a more authoritative source than this, when it comes to what the requirements are. If you've got one, I'm sure we'd all be happy to see it.
You'll notice that the "Refinery or Importer Average" limit is 30 PPM, precisely as I have asserted. The "Per-Gallon Cap" is 80 PPM, as stated by bruno, which allows for potential fuel contamination during transport. These limits have been in effect for more than three years.
So, how does this affect your ongoing statements that 504.00 oils can't deal with the US market's "300+ PPM sulfur fuels"?
Originally Posted By: daman
if i heard him right he could order both 5w30 and 40 in ESP.
Interesting, as that would seem to indicate he was referencing the Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30, and ESP Formula M 5W-40. The only Pennzoil product that is currently listed as meeting the VW 504.00/507.00 requirements (which relate to the ESP properties) is Pennzoil Platinum VX 5W-30.
if i heard him right he could order both 5w30 and 40 in ESP.
Interesting, as that would seem to indicate he was referencing the Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30, and ESP Formula M 5W-40. The only Pennzoil product that is currently listed as meeting the VW 504.00/507.00 requirements (which relate to the ESP properties) is Pennzoil Platinum VX 5W-30.
Originally Posted By: rshunter
Originally Posted By: daman
if i heard him right he could order both 5w30 and 40 in ESP.
Interesting, as that would seem to indicate he was referencing the Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30, and ESP Formula M 5W-40. The only Pennzoil product that is currently listed as meeting the VW 504.00/507.00 requirements (which relate to the ESP properties) is Pennzoil Platinum VX 5W-30.
He had to have been talking ESP because i asked if it was TDT and he said whats that? he never heard of it
.
Originally Posted By: daman
if i heard him right he could order both 5w30 and 40 in ESP.
Interesting, as that would seem to indicate he was referencing the Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30, and ESP Formula M 5W-40. The only Pennzoil product that is currently listed as meeting the VW 504.00/507.00 requirements (which relate to the ESP properties) is Pennzoil Platinum VX 5W-30.
He had to have been talking ESP because i asked if it was TDT and he said whats that? he never heard of it
Originally Posted By: rshunter
The sulfur issue is one which hasn't existed for some time,
Thanks. In that case there must be something else in the US gasoline that causes issues such as excessive valve deposits on VW direct injection engines - something which apparently is not an issue in Europe.
The sulfur issue is one which hasn't existed for some time,
Thanks. In that case there must be something else in the US gasoline that causes issues such as excessive valve deposits on VW direct injection engines - something which apparently is not an issue in Europe.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: rshunter
The sulfur issue is one which hasn't existed for some time,
Thanks. In that case there must be something else in the US gasoline that causes issues such as excessive valve deposits on VW direct injection engines - something which apparently is not an issue in Europe.
They were talking about Mercedes gasoline engines -- and BTW there is nothing different about gasoline in Europe and North America. Sulfur content is a non-issue, ethanol is a non-issue.
Emissions equipment is different, or might be different. And that is the most likely reason why MB would recommend oils meeting one specification and not the other.
Originally Posted By: rshunter
The sulfur issue is one which hasn't existed for some time,
Thanks. In that case there must be something else in the US gasoline that causes issues such as excessive valve deposits on VW direct injection engines - something which apparently is not an issue in Europe.
They were talking about Mercedes gasoline engines -- and BTW there is nothing different about gasoline in Europe and North America. Sulfur content is a non-issue, ethanol is a non-issue.
Emissions equipment is different, or might be different. And that is the most likely reason why MB would recommend oils meeting one specification and not the other.
Hi,
opposite_locker - You said this;
"Anyone else tried this oil in a car that doesn't require it from the factory?"
Yes I have - but the Delvac 1 5W-40 CI4+/SL (and earlier) version(s) only at this stage. It has been used in my Porsche engines for well over 160kkms (100k miles) and for over a decade
opposite_locker - You said this;
"Anyone else tried this oil in a car that doesn't require it from the factory?"
Yes I have - but the Delvac 1 5W-40 CI4+/SL (and earlier) version(s) only at this stage. It has been used in my Porsche engines for well over 160kkms (100k miles) and for over a decade
Good to know. I have always been a fan of the thicker Mobil 1 formulas (non-GF4 30wts, 40wts, & 50wts) and will likely never intentionally run anything other than Mobil 1 in any of the MB's. But I do like to play around with different oils in my BMW and the trucks.
Reason I ask is to see if others have experienced similar mpg increases. Unfortunately, due to the low TBN of low-SAPS oils, they are said to be unsuitable for long drain intervals in vehicles that run US gasoline.
I have been scanning through posts on various different forums (mostly VW) that pertain to experience with the Mobil 1 ESP line (both Formula 5w30 and Formula M 5w40) and have seen a few others talking about significant mpg increases using these oil (2+ mpg).
In order for such mileage increases to occur, I have to imagine that the ESP oils yield VERY low internal engine friction, even compared to other synthetic oils. I have run many different brands/weights of synthetic oil in my vehicles over the years, but have NEVER seen any where near the increase in fuel economy as we saw when switching from M1 0w40 to the ESP 5w40.
Taking our '09 GL in next week to dump the Valvoline 5w40 MST that was put in 1k miles ago in favor of some 5w40 ESP...I'm curious if it will make a difference in that vehicle.
Reason I ask is to see if others have experienced similar mpg increases. Unfortunately, due to the low TBN of low-SAPS oils, they are said to be unsuitable for long drain intervals in vehicles that run US gasoline.
I have been scanning through posts on various different forums (mostly VW) that pertain to experience with the Mobil 1 ESP line (both Formula 5w30 and Formula M 5w40) and have seen a few others talking about significant mpg increases using these oil (2+ mpg).
In order for such mileage increases to occur, I have to imagine that the ESP oils yield VERY low internal engine friction, even compared to other synthetic oils. I have run many different brands/weights of synthetic oil in my vehicles over the years, but have NEVER seen any where near the increase in fuel economy as we saw when switching from M1 0w40 to the ESP 5w40.
Taking our '09 GL in next week to dump the Valvoline 5w40 MST that was put in 1k miles ago in favor of some 5w40 ESP...I'm curious if it will make a difference in that vehicle.
I just called the MB dealer near me and they said they'd sell me Mobil 1 5W-40 ESP Formula M for $4.25/qt by draining it from their 500 gallon tank and into containers I bring in. Mega deal!
Hi everyone, new member here, today I went to the Chrysler-Jeep dealer to get "Mobil-1 ESP 5w-30 MB spec 229.51" was told they do not stock that and gave me "Mobil-1 ESP Formula M 5w-40 MB spec 229.51" my question is will this oil be an acceptable replacement? Jeep calls for 5w-30, this is for a (2008.5) Grand Cherokee 3-liter OM642 V6 diesel engine. The liter bottle also said for gasoline and diesel engines.
2008.5 Grand Cherokee 3L diesel
2008.5 Grand Cherokee 3L diesel
Originally Posted By: sidley
Hi everyone, new member here, today I went to the Chrysler-Jeep dealer to get "Mobil-1 ESP 5w-30 MB spec 229.51" was told they do not stock that and gave me "Mobil-1 ESP Formula M 5w-40 MB spec 229.51" my question is will this oil be an acceptable replacement? Jeep calls for 5w-30, this is for a (2008.5) Grand Cherokee 3-liter OM642 V6 diesel engine. The liter bottle also said for gasoline and diesel engines.
2008.5 Grand Cherokee 3L diesel
5w40 is the default viscosity for synthetic diesel engine oils.
IMO the Formula M 5w40 is (or should be) just slightly better than the Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w30. If it satisfies your warranty requirements, then you should be all set. The only bad thing is, I bet you had to pay quite a lot per quart/liter.
Hi everyone, new member here, today I went to the Chrysler-Jeep dealer to get "Mobil-1 ESP 5w-30 MB spec 229.51" was told they do not stock that and gave me "Mobil-1 ESP Formula M 5w-40 MB spec 229.51" my question is will this oil be an acceptable replacement? Jeep calls for 5w-30, this is for a (2008.5) Grand Cherokee 3-liter OM642 V6 diesel engine. The liter bottle also said for gasoline and diesel engines.
2008.5 Grand Cherokee 3L diesel
5w40 is the default viscosity for synthetic diesel engine oils.
IMO the Formula M 5w40 is (or should be) just slightly better than the Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w30. If it satisfies your warranty requirements, then you should be all set. The only bad thing is, I bet you had to pay quite a lot per quart/liter.
It's fine...both the 5w30 and 5w40 Formula M meet MB 229.51 specs for that engine.
Thank you all for the replies you have satisfied my concerns, you are correct Tornado Red I paid $13.83 Cdn inc tax for a U.S quart = $12.79 U.S. I purchased it for top-ups, though have not needed it so far at 3,000 miles.
Another slight disagreement I am having is with the service dept wanting me to change the oil every 6,500 miles, where as the Jeep book calls for 12,500 miles or one year unless the on board computer says otherwise, I will do the first one at 6,500 miles then at 10,000 mile intervals.
'08.5 G-Cherokee diesel
Another slight disagreement I am having is with the service dept wanting me to change the oil every 6,500 miles, where as the Jeep book calls for 12,500 miles or one year unless the on board computer says otherwise, I will do the first one at 6,500 miles then at 10,000 mile intervals.
'08.5 G-Cherokee diesel
- Status
Similar threads
