Mobil 1 5w30, 13,362 miles, 4.7L Dodge Dakota

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2002 Dodge Dakota QC 4x4 EQUIPMENT MAKE: Dodge EQUIPMENT MODEL: 4.7L V-8 FUEL TYPE: Gasoline (Unleaded) OIL LAB: Oil Analyzers (left 4 columns)/DysonAnalysis (right most column)
code:
Oil Brand	Mopar	Mobil1	Mobil1	Mobil 1	Mobil1 EP
Oil Weight	5w30	5w30	5w30	5w30	5w30
Oil Filter	Mopar	Mobil 1	Mobil 1	Mobil 1	Mobil 1
Sample Date	10/4/02	2/15/03	6/26/03	3/08/04	9/15/07
Miles Oil	1201	4140	5300	7737	13,362
Miles Eng	1201	5509	10800	18537	62,918

Iron		18	22	22	31	36
Chromium	0	4	3	6	5
Lead		0	2	1	0	0
Copper		10	6	7	20	11
Tin		1	0	0	0	0
Aluminum	3	8	6	11	8
Nickel		0	0	0	4	2
Silver		0	0	0	0	0
Silicon		16	21	20	8	16
Boron		34	138	234	242	72
Sodium		1	19	15	25	25
Magnesium	0	40	44	19	83
Calcium		1124	3038	2859	3025	2195
Barium		0	0	0	0	0
Phosph.		887	1055	1022	975	741
Zinc		1098	1108	1156	1140	929
Moly.		0	73	107	147	98
Titanium	0	0	0	0	0
Vanadium	0	0	0	0	0
Potassium	0	0	0	0	0
Fuel		1.1	<1	<1	<1	0.876
VIS 40C		-	-	-	-	69.9	
VIS 100C	NA	8.9	10.13	10.41	11.0	
TAN		-	-	-	-	4.37	
FLASH		-	-	-	-	360	
Oxid		6.7	4.0	8.0	6.7	37
Nitr		5.7	3.0	5.0	5.7	19
KF		-	-	-	-	350	
TBN		6.9	7.37	7.89	6.9	2.0
Soot		N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	0
Water		0.05	0	0	0	-
Sulfate		-	-	-	-	34

Note there is a gap in the history during a period of time when I didn't have oil analaysis done. The oil was in use for approximately 1 year, although it obviously should have been replaced well before then based on the analysis. The air filter was replaced about the same time as the last oil change. Driving is 60/40 highway/city.

According to this report, a TBN less than 3.0 is considered too low. The oxidation and nitration levels are very high.

I will not be using Mobil 1 EP again after the next oil change, and will be changing a number of things based on Terry's recommendations.

Overall, I thought the wear numbers looked pretty good based on the miles on the oil, but Terry thinks there is plenty of room for improvement. I'm disappointed in Mobil 1 EP as others have mentioned as well. I'm not certain, but I think that was the second consecutive time I used Mobil 1 EP.

 
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Looks great to me. Oil stayed in grade and wear metals are very low for that mileage. Oxid is high but the viscosity is spot on. TAN is up there. I think you got your $'s worth with this oil IMHO>
 
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I agree with buster. While aluminum,copper and chromium seem a little high they are less than your last 7700 mile run. All else seems very good for the milage. Let us know what Terry recomends if he doesn't mind.
 
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TR3, Terry does usually mind sharing his comments so don't hold your breath waiting on that one. TAN is way above TBN, nitration is very high. I don't know the oxidation level in the new oil. Do you? Does OAI use a different method to determine oxidation & nitration than Terry? What air filter are you using? What kind of driving? How long was the oil in there?
 

Gilberttribe

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I don't know the oxidation level in new oil, but I would be surprised if it were anything but very low. I used an oversize Mobil 1 oil filter. The air filter was a FRAM Air Hawg, which has been replaced. As I mentioend above, the oil was in use for approximately one year -- September 2006 to September 2007. Obviously it went through a full Colorado winter. My driving is 60/40 highway/city. Highway speeds are 80 mph whenever possible, but I'm pretty soft on the accelerator. I agree that there was a nice drop in wear metals. Based on the 8K miles results I got with SuperSyn Mobil 1, I thought 15K was within reach for the EP version. Based on this analysis, I'm going to drain the Mobil 1 EP that is currently in the truck at 8K miles to compare that with the non-EP results. Is it fair to say that the additives in the EP version appear to be less than the old non-EP version? I may be incorrectly assuming the amount of additive stays fairly constant over the use period.
 

JAG

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Yeah, TAN, Oxidation, and Nitration, and to a lesser extent, TBN, indicate this oil was chemically hosed. It's not one of M1's best offerings IMO. This is a lot of miles though and it would have been really bad if one of the majority of non-synthetic oils were used.
 
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What oil, filter, and OCI do you have planned for your next oil change? Am I correct in thinking that if you continued to run this same oil, for the same number of miles, and had the same UOA results every time, that the engine would still be healthy & running well after 250-300k miles? I think we all worry too much about a few ppm in our UOA's.
 

JAG

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Wayne, the only wear metal that concerns me is the chromium from ring wear. It is has been higher than expected on a PPM per mile basis for several OCIs. Rings don't have much mass so these wear numbers are a concern IMO. RI_RS4 did a calculation on this in the sticky thread at the top of this forum called "Acceptable Wear Metal..." or something like that. Deposits are the other concern with oil condition as it was in this UOA.
 
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I had a 2001 Dakota 4x4 QC with 4.7 and all the bell's and whitles. I would not waste my time with any after market filter for this engine. The OEM filter flow like crazy!!! Dodge OEM filter has the flow number's printedonthe side and you would have to have a much bigger air pump then that 4.7 to benifit from a drop in filter change like an air hog etc.... I would get a good paper filter backin that air box. If you want to do extended drain's I would really consider trying M1 0W40. It is designed for extended drain's on European high performance car's and luxury models. I do not think M1-EP did anyting wrong here I just think that M1 0W40 will work better. I think that silicone was not out of sight but was still the main cause of the cromim wear. I think it could be a combination of ring wear and valve train wear. I think itis dirt getting into the combustion process. It does not seem to be getting past the ring's wich is good but better to keep it out all together!!!
 

Gilberttribe

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At Terry's request, I can't divulge Terry's advice, but the next two UOAs should be interesting. I just replaced the air filter with a FRAM paper filter. I plan to replace it more often and certainly more often than the owner's manual calls for. An interest point regarding the chromium wear is that if I changed the oil every 3000 miles, and assume the same level of wear, the chromium PPM would have been 1.15. I don't know how accurate the analysis is, but I could easily image 1.15 registering as a zero in some reports. Are longer drain intervals more revealing? I don't have enough data to do a direct comparison, but I'm really questioning the value of EP over non-EP Mobil 1. EP was spent prior to 13k miles where old non-EP was still going strong on 8k.
 
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IMO I think the numbers are too high. The iron went up with M1. It looks like in this case "EVERYTHING out performs M1". M1 use to be good, but times have changed and many products have been poorly made.
 

JAG

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Quote:
An interest point regarding the chromium wear is that if I changed the oil every 3000 miles, and assume the same level of wear, the chromium PPM would have been 1.15. I don't know how accurate the analysis is, but I could easily image 1.15 registering as a zero in some reports. Are longer drain intervals more revealing?
Generally, the measured wear RATES decrease as miles on the OCI increase so calculating a PPM per mile on a long interval will show a lower number than doing it on a shorter interval. This last interval's chromium level is not good (IMO) considering the interval while the previous few UOAs' chromium levels were terrible (IMO) considering the mileage intervals. In gas engines, I don't like to see a chromium level over 1 for typical mileage lengths or over 2 for long mileage lengths. I'm not putting all the blame on the oil for this. Mobil 1 seems to show higher than average iron levels (which does not bother me usually) but I have not seen this trend extend to any other wear metals. I'm sure something else caused this and don't know what it is, but with Terry's advice, you don't need mine.
 
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Not bad for the mileage. Some tweaking can be done to reduce the Fe that sticks out so much above the rest. The move to EP seems to have reduced the Fe escalation with mileage ..but seems to still show the (almost) signature Fe marker that we sorta expect with M1 oil. For our comparisons, I'm glad you're doing another EP OCI (hopefully for the same duration) to see if you've eliminated other variables. After that's confirmed ..then I'd shop around and try something else to see if you can find an oil that can further reduce the numbers. I like to work on one axis at a time. That is, Terry will surely be able to see through anything ..but to anyone else it will not be clear whether it was contaminant/fuel related improvement ..or the new oil. Without a divining rod ..most of us just speculate.
 
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I sure would love to see the results with any other top shelf synthetic oil. Maybe those Fe numbers would come down.
 

Gilberttribe

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Quote:
Generally, the measured wear RATES decrease as miles on the OCI increase so calculating a PPM per mile on a long interval will show a lower number than doing it on a shorter interval. This last interval's chromium level is not good (IMO) considering the interval while the previous few UOAs' chromium levels were terrible (IMO) considering the mileage intervals. In gas engines, I don't like to see a chromium level over 1 for typical mileage lengths or over 2 for long mileage lengths. I'm not putting all the blame on the oil for this. Mobil 1 seems to show higher than average iron levels (which does not bother me usually) but I have not seen this trend extend to any other wear metals. I'm sure something else caused this and don't know what it is, but with Terry's advice, you don't need mine.
Could you elaborate on your statement that "the measured wear RATES decrease as miles on the OCI increase." That statement would imply that longer drain intervals or older oil facilitate less wear. Not knowing much about this, simple logic would lead me to believe that as the oil degrades, the engine wear will increase, and the numbers get even larger as the drain interval was extended. I could imagine that the wear rate may not be linear for some reason or the particles may not stay suspended in the oil as well, but those seem like they would have only minor affects.
 
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There's lots of mystery surrounding what one can glean from UOA. "Is it wear?" is the confounding nut that everyone wants to crack. There are some markers that appear to track with mileage (Fe) ..while others tend to not do so. You don't get double the Pb with double the mileage (usually). Fe is probably the most apparent "directly wearing" material ..while something like Pb, in the absence of a particle streak (contamination of some type), may just be a reaction to additives (who knows?- Terry, I'm sure). The UOA tends to tell us more about the oil in how it endured the service. We have issues getting a clear picture since we can use varied weights and additive variances, let alone extremely varied service duties, that can effect the metal numbers. The trucking industry doesn't have such issues. The oils are spec'd to a limited selection ..and the wear is what the wear is. They're only interested in the oil's condition other than identifying a problem (coolant/air filtration/etc.).
 
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