You did. Just look at your lengthy posts.
Who just wrote a novel?
A large portion, perhaps the majority of my posts on here are lengthy. That in no way implies that I was, or am, in any way wound-up.
Did I? Since when is saying that Mobil 1 makes average motor oil is non-sense?
That's not what you stated, why are you having such a problem owning what you originally posted? which was:
Mobil 1 isn't that great of a motor oil it seems. I no longer use Mobil 1 in any of our vehicles. Is it bad oil? No, but probably on par with SuperTech and Amazon Basics
Mobil 1 makes okay oil, not great oil. At one point they made the SuperTech for Walmart that was sold in the western parts of the US. Exxon is a whole seller, they don't give two craps about spending money on R&D. I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings, however, Mobil 1 is average motor oil at best.
Mobil 1 has no incentive to make their off-the-shelf motor oils any better than the competition, but, worse than that, they don't want those motor oils to compete with their own, more expensive products.
As I already noted, Mobil makes tiers of products. Their bottom tier is Mobil Super, which would be comparable to the store brands you mentioned. This is followed by the silver bottle Mobil 1 products, then the Mobil EP products, which is the oil being discussed in this thread. There are also the ESP products that slot-in there somewhere, which varies, depending on the grade and approvals.
GM didn't back-spec the Corvette to use Mobil 1 ESP 0W-40 instead of Mobil 1 5W-30 just for fun, and out of sheer boredom, they did so for a good reason. Anyway, it's beside the point to get into more detail about this now. Their FS 0W-40 isn't that great either, shears to shreds in anything with a Turbo and evaporates quickly when you run it at around 240F or higher. And it's to be expected, as these oils are constantly on sale and they have rebates on them, so something has to give, and it shows. I'm not going to elaborate on this any further because there is enough evidence here on BITOG, other forums, and YouTube, posted by folks who are not that satisfied with how various Mobil 1 motor oils performed for them, especially the rate at which their vehicles consumed said motor oils. I'm sure they're not all crazy or stupid, for that matter. And no, these days, you can't take any of those off-the-shelf Mobil 1 products that you can buy at Walmart and use them in a race car at Sebring. But if you insist on doing it, well, good luck to you.
The ESP product was selected because it is lower SAPS than the Euro product (FS), this is similar to why the SRT oil is also low SAPS and why Pennzoil didn't just use the Euro lube. The FS 0w-40 (and before it was FS) was the oil used by the Corvette race team as well as what was used at Sebring. Both Doug Hillary and Johnny (former Shell employee) noted that M1 0w-40, yes, that same oil you can buy at Walmart, is used in numerous racing events. Feel free to search for the threads.
No, not really, as you didn't even want to know why I said what I said. Considering that we talked in private before and that I looked up to you, valued your opinion, and respected you, well, at the very least, you could have asked me in private. You most certainly had that option, and the door was open to you. However, you choose not to do so, and instead, you opted for a public display because you enjoy this way too much. And I get it. I really do. The psychology of you, it's... fascinating.
We had a very civil series of private exchanges where you asked for input on your plans and, solicited advice and recommendations. I harbour no ill-will towards you. You made these statements in the public forum and clearly were willing to stand by them, as multiple people had already taken issue with them by the time I decided to weigh-in. Why would I take the discussion private if you were confident in letting these statements stand here? I've not been rude, I've not been mean, I have noted, multiple times, that you posted some nonsense (the comparison to Supertech for example, along with the R&D comment) and I was in no way the first to call you on it. Instead of backing away from it, you appear to want to double-down and that is indeed unfortunate.
Did I back away from it? Got silly? How? You don't like memes? Too bad because I don't always have time to explain, and in this case, I didn't even want to. You got so wound up about me calling Mobil 1 "average" that you make ExxonMobil's lobbyists look bad. Well, considering their latest fiasco (XOM lobbyist talking to Greenpeace, lol), they could use someone as loyal as you just about now.
Again, I didn't get wound up. I posted some MSDS sheets to show the significant difference in base oil selection, which I thought would quickly bring an end to that part of the discussion, as well as data about actual R&D spending, which I hoped would dispel that. Neither seemed to have the intended impact unfortunately.
This hyperbole is silly, just like the memes. And there's nothing wrong with being silly, but you appear to have gotten quite offended over the issue taken with, and corrections made to your statements as presented. You keep saying that all you did was call the product average, which you didn't. But you don't seem to understand, or want to understand, why that statement isn't accurate. The same goes with the wild claim about R&D spending, which was another problematic statement.
I run the same "average" stuff everyone else does because it's what's available to me. I'm too cheap to fork over any more money than I have to for better motor because I don't do anything special with my vehicles except travel from A to B. That doesn't mean that Mobil 1 couldn't do better when it comes to their off-the-shelf motor oils, they certainly could, but they don't want to, because ... money.
Mobil puts an expensive base (PAO) in their upper tier products like the one we are discussing, not because they have to, but because they choose to as part of the formulation process in order to meet their own internal performance targets. Could they use even more PAO? Absolutely, and cost is certainly a factor in why they don't, but we don't see that same trend from Mobil's peers in this space and we certainly don't see this effort from blenders producing Amazon Basics or Supertech, which would be the average benchmark for this space, just like we don't see it with Mobil Super, which is also average.
No worries, others do it as well. Mobil 1 doesn't want to get "too many" approvals for their own FS 5W-40 because they don't want it to compete with some of their other oils and cannibalize sales. Castrol EDGE Supercar 0W-40 is vastly better than their EDGE 0W-40 that you can buy at Walmart and is nearly impossible to obtain unless you're a dealer. It just happened that I called out "Mobil 1" this time around. At least Castrol made an effort this go around to get a few more approvals and certifications for their EP line of motor oils. Pennzoil seems to be running in the opposite direction, especially with their Euro offerings, here in the US. A never-ending rabbit hole is opened when providing lengthy explanations as most don't want to read them anyway due to time constraints, while others are here for a few spicy bytes or seeking an outlet to release their suppressed frustration and anger.
The approval space is constantly changing, and yes, these companies will, if it will be more profitable, split product offerings. The 0w-40's have historically carried the longest list of approvals, but that changed with the shift away from full SAPS products. That doesn't mean that the products themselves have been cheapened, the approvals change, that's why all the 0w-40's lost LL-01 for example.
Suffice to say that off-the-shelf Mobil 1 motor oil isn't great for any out-of-the-ordinary application, even heavy towing.
And then we get into the posit and assertion stuff again... Ugh. Ford's durability testing, just as an example, uses their own Motorcraft (Conoco-Philips) oil, which is generally a pretty unremarkable oil. Unless you've actually performed tear-down analysis, you have absolutely no idea how any oil performs in conditions beyond those it is approved for, however, in this case, since Mobil does in fact have the Ford approval, which is based on Ford's in-house testing, how are we qualifying "better"? It meets A40? M1 0w-40 meets A40, but you said above it isn't great, even though Porsche says it's just as good as any other A40 oil and managed to pass the A40 'ring test so.... 🤷♂️
These are the sort of problematic statements that resulted in this thread going off the rails.
Heck, if someone with a Toyota Supra needed to buy oil at Walmart, the only one that's compliant is Castrol EDGE EP 0W-20. Mobil 1 has one as well, in the form of X2 0W-20, but it's expensive and hard to obtain, and... they could have just made their EP 0W-20 ACEA C5 compliant, but they choose not to... because ... money.
How dare they develop a specific product to potentially increase profitability eh? LOL
As such, the only thing that people can buy at Walmart is the average Mobil 1 product.
Right, so the product that is two tiers up from Mobil's average product line (Mobil Super), EP, is the average product? So what does that make Mobil Super, Supertech and Amazon Basics then? Because you said Mobil 1 was no better than those, so....
You can put up all the charts, MSDS files (which don't really mean anything because they are not a recipe and there is no guarantee that you will get what's on there because most of the time those files are outdated), and ad hominem attacks you want, because that won't change the fact that ExxonMobil isn't selling the general buying public that shops at Walmart (or other large stores) their best "stuff." Not because they can't, but because they don't want to.
Amusing that you are trying to lecture me on the merits (or lack thereof) of referencing an MSDS and using words I've uttered in posts long before your joining. Clearly, the data suggests that there's a gaping chasm in terms of base oil selection between the oil being discussed and Supertech. That is what has been illustrated. If your reference oil is blended using Group II+ and the oil being critiqued PAO, one can't, with any respect for the subject at hand, state that these two oils were blended to the same price point, let alone performance targets.
No, Mobil isn't going to blend an oil with straight PAO as the primary base if they don't have to. But we DO know that in order to pass the approvals and meet the specs for this category, you don't need PAO at all. The fact that Mobil continues to use it in their upper tier products sets them apart from the average store-brand stuff, which makes sense when viewed through the lens of a tiered approach, with pricing that follows.
Not in the slightest. If it has taught me anything, it is that I should post as little as possible. New ideas, opinions, remarks, or observations are met with resistance. Enjoy stagnation and repetition, both of which are boring and don't lead to progress.
Well, that's unfortunate. Perhaps you can revisit this exchange, and the issues taken with your statements with a cooler head later on.
An ad hominem attack bundled with elitism in one sentence. Wow, nicely done, my hat off to you, Sir! Though the ad hominem attacks are scattered throughout your posts here and there, you really wanted to add one to your last sentence, for good measure, I suppose. Good for you. No worries, I will not look for your opinion or contact you in the future. Thank you for showing me your true colors. If nothing else, this has been a perfect reminder of how little I can trust someone I talk to from time to time over the Internet. It's a shame because I enjoyed our conversations.
No elitism implied, you don't work for an oil company and don't have access to formulations, budgets or inside data, but you made authoritative statements on all of those things. I don't either, but it didn't require much work to find out the R&D spending for the three large majors. You took to making some statements that were not well received, that was a potential learning experience, I've had several myself over the years, but you appear to be making the choice to not learn from them and rather make judgements about the people who took issue with what you stated and their motivations instead. That is truly unfortunate.
It would be effortless for me to call you out publically on certain things as well. However, out of respect, I won't do it.
That's never stopped anybody in the past. If I've made a statement or statements that warrant criticism, have at it. But based on the nature of this exchange so far, I expect there will be quite a bit of material that soundly misses its mark, is taken out of context or wholly misinterpreted.
Suffice to say that the fuss you made over a simple statement I made about a certain motor oil brand showed me that you have some seriously deep-seated issues,
Ahhh, the old personal judgement because somebody took issue with something you said on the internet. You've read my posts in the past, you know, or should know, how I respond. There was no "fuss" or malice in anything posted here. Statements were made that were not well received and subsequently criticized, I posted what I thought was sufficient evidence to support the criticisms.
so I don't want anything to do with you. Let's be civilized and leave it at that. I wish you the best in life and all that good jazz, and from now on, I will no longer talk to you. I hope that, at least in real life, you treat your friends better than on the Internet. No need to reply either, unless, of course, you feel the need to have the last word.
Well, given the novel you wrote, clearly I needed to reply. I absolutely wish you the best as well and I'm disheartened by your need to be offended by my remarks in this thread rather than taking pause and questioning why they were made and considering their merit. Had you done that with my first reply, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
I absolutely expect to be called on any BS statements that I might make by my friends and will gladly return the favour. Then we'll tease each other relentlessly for months over it. That's a great deterrent to avoid making that same mistake again