Mobil 1 0w20: Thinking of using it...

[buster]

quote:

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One has to also consider this fact in an historical setting: The older higher-viscosity oils were needed because the film thickness was provided mainly by the film's viscosity. With the more modern oils, the newer boundary additives supplement the thinner films.
A study was done on oil rheology (I'll have to find the paper) which showed that even with Group III oils, if those oils had the proper boundary adds, such as Moly DTC, the wear was equal to or less than higher viscosity oils with substandard additive packages.

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I am not as knowledgable as many of you on this subject, but Molekule said basically what I've thinking all along. Pscholte, I agree completely and think that M1 0w-20 will be one of Mobil's best oils. Look at all of the UOA's we have of it. They are excellent and show now sign if higher wear even in V8 trucks.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000701

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000753

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000785#000000

In the RSX it did better then the 0w-30.

[ September 18, 2003, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by MolaKule:
FWIW,

Initial data from the Clearance/Viscosity study shows just about
any oil between 4.5 cSt and 16.5 cSt will provide sufficient film thickness for most clearances found in today's daily drivers.

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Even if someone does a lot of full throttle driving though? This is where I'd be concerned with using a 0w20 oil. I think it would work well for normal driving, but for someone who likes to rev out the engine a few times a day, it could be a recipe for more wear.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:
Even if someone does a lot of full throttle driving though?

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I seldom get heavy into the throttle, and I can only recall one time that I ever pushed the tach needle to the redline. Translation: I don't think my driving style is a factor when it comes to trying Mobil 1 0w20.

 

[TooSlick]

Ive run the Amsoil 5w-20 in my Tacoma and am now running the Synergyn 0w-20. The bearing/lead wear rate with the 5w-20 was approx six times what it was with the Amsoil 5w-30 used on the previous change. So I would be cautious about going too thin. In this case, you had a HT/HS of 2.9 for the 5w-20, vs 3.5 for the 5w-30.

The difference in HT/HS viscosity between the M1, 0w-20 and 5w-30 really isnt that great, so you may be okay to run the 0w-20 if the 0w-30 or 5w-30 works fine. If you decide to try this, I'd try it in cold weather first and not in the summer ....

As a general rule, engines that run at low rpms and high loads need heavier oils and vice versa.....

TS

 

[kboyv]

Ok, but what about cars (Honda & Fords) that recommend 5w20. I happen to have a Honda coming up on its first oil change and still tossing and turning on what to put in it.
I do drive a little hard and its hot in Hawaii not to mention the traffic.

 

[tenderloin]

My sons Focus 2.0 DOHC runs noticeably better and gets better mpg with 20W oil.Thats my pick for your Honda. We use Synergyn and Torco for the most part, but have used others including 30W. He plans on trying the Mobil 0w-20 next time around. We live in Southern California and the heat is no problem for the oils used so far.

 

[Al]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:

Originally posted by MolaKule:
[qb] FWIW,
Even if someone does a lot of full throttle driving though? This is where I'd be concerned with using a 0w20 oil. I think it would work well for normal driving, but for someone who likes to rev out the engine a few times a day, it could be a recipe for more wear.

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Exactly-clearance is one thing-load is another. But as he said he's not a "lead foot."

Can't overlook this statement by TooSlick: "The bearing/lead wear rate with the 5w-20 was approx six times what it was with the Amsoil 5w-30 used on the previous change. So I would be cautious about going too thin. "

[ September 18, 2003, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Al ]

 

[Flimflam]

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Originally posted by speedybenz:
I think an advantage that the thinner oils have in high rpm (12,000-15,000rpm)is that as bearing speed increases the thinner oil is less prone to high shear forces in the oil film. Plus the lighter viscosity allows for a higher volume of oil passing through the bearings and this helps cool the bearings and remove contaminates.

But any detonation will cause the oil film to dissappear and that means bearing failure.

Jeff

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The "Big 4" bike manufacturers seem to think 10w-40 and 20w-50 oils are the way to go. Mobil and Castrol websites seem to push 10w-40 and 20w-50 as the best weights to use.

But for the best opinion on the matter, go to Redline oils site. They appear to hint that even 10w-30, 10w-40 [by most oil manufacturers] do not have enough film strength for high pressure/high shear spots like the crankshaft big end bearings. My more than 2 decades of driving and biking experience seems to support Redline's claim.

 

[G-MAN]

FlimFlam, you'll also find on the Redline site the recommendation that people use the lowest viscosity oil that is appropriate for their driving conditions.

 

[Flimflam]

quote:

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Originally posted by G-Man II:
FlimFlam, you'll also find on the Redline site the recommendation that people use the lowest viscosity oil that is appropriate for their driving conditions.

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Sure, G-man. Redline recommends lowest vis.....so does my Owner's Manual. But just think for a moment: is this recommendation for long engine life and low wear? Or is it for increased Fuel Economy? In any case, I just plain rejected my Owner's Manual recommendation for 5w-30. I rejected the idea of 5w-30 from Day 1 with my new truck in January 1999, and today, test data is available showing that 5w-30 shears down too much.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by Flimflam:
Sure, G-man. Redline recommends lowest vis.....so does my Owner's Manual. But just think for a moment: is this recommendation for long engine life and low wear? Or is it for increased Fuel Economy?

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Well, I seriously doubt that Redline is making the recommendation for fuel economy reasons. None of their oils are API or ILSAC certified. I think their recommendation is based on their own testing which shows that under certain conditions a higher vis oil is appropriate, but as for a higher vis oil being the best choice "across the board," that simply is not the case.

 

[buster]

quote:

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One has to also consider this fact in an historical setting: The older higher-viscosity oils were needed because the film thickness was provided mainly by the film's viscosity. With the more modern oils, the newer boundary additives supplement the thinner films.
A study was done on oil rheology (I'll have to find the paper) which showed that even with Group III oils, if those oils had the proper boundary adds, such as Moly DTC, the wear was equal to or less than higher viscosity oils with substandard additive packages.

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Flimflam, two decades ago is not today. Redline and Mobil both state on there website you want the minimum viscosity possible but still want the maximum protection.


Flimflam, thicker oils are not always better. Why can't people realize this? You can make a good oil in any grade viscosity. Take M1 0w-20, it has a good amount of EP/AW additives and it PAO and ester based. It will protect fine. Too thick of an oil will not make it better. It will only rob HP and create more friction.

[ September 19, 2003, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[unDummy]

Go for it.
But, I also think that you should monitor oil TEMP with previous oil and compare with the 0w-20. If the oil temp goes up, you might be better off sticking with the 30wt oils or at least install an oil cooler(plumbed/wrap...).

I also wanted to mention that engine clearances aren't the only thing that allows choice of oil weight.

Oil TEMP is just as important. Oil has a viscosity curve. If you can lower the temp of the thinner weight oil, you will have a thicker oil would should be the same as the thicker oil at a higher temp.

Automakers can switch to a thinner oil very easily without changing ANY engine specs. All they have to do is add an oil cooler or larger sump. An average oil temp drop of 10-15F should easily make up for the drop in viscosity.

Since I've seen temp drops when switching to synthetics, I am going to bet that a 20wt synthetic should provide equal or better protection than a 30wt mineral oil.

 

[buster]

So far I have 600 miles on the 0w-20 and no consumption at all. Thats really good for my engine which normally consumes a little bit by now. I bet the NOAK is very low with this oil. I should have over 700 by end of the weekend. I think I'll sample a 3k but keep the oil in the engine and see how the report comes back before draining completely.

 

[TooSlick]

Buster,

I'll be surprised if oil consumption with the 0w-20 isn't significantly higher than with the M1, 10w-30. The 0w-20 is quite a bit thinner and the Noack is likely in the 8% range, vs 6% for the 10w-30. I have to say though, I've run both 0w-20 and 5w-20 in my Tacoma and have seen little or no oil consumption after 5k-6k miles.

Your Corolla has been generating very low wear numbers as I recall and I'm sure it will do pretty well with the 0w-20, especially in the cooler weather coming up. I still like the M1, 10w-30 for warmer weather - it looks to be their best SAE grade of this product.

Tooslick

Tooslick

 

[metroplex]

The 2003 Crown vics DO have 6 qt oil pans vs the 5 qt oil pans for pre-03.

 

[buster]

quote:

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Buster,

I'll be surprised if oil consumption with the 0w-20 isn't significantly higher than with the M1, 10w-30. The 0w-20 is quite a bit thinner and the Noack is likely in the 8% range, vs 6% for the 10w-30. I have to say though, I've run both 0w-20 and 5w-20 in my Tacoma and have seen little or no oil consumption after 5k-6k miles.

Your Corolla has been generating very low wear numbers as I recall and I'm sure it will do pretty well with the 0w-20, especially in the cooler weather coming up. I still like the M1, 10w-30 for warmer weather - it looks to be their best SAE grade of this product.

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I'm actually very surprised bc at 750 miles on the 0w-20 so far, I have zero consumption. I've been driving as I normally do which is 80mph on highways @ 3,000 rpms and the city driving fairly hard. I agree with you that the 10w-30 is there best grade. I think the 0w-20 will turn out to be Mobil's second best grade to be honest. It's formulated very well from what I know and the UOA's have been excellent. In cars like mine, I think its a great choice. Mobil seems to do well with oils that require no VII's. I don't think ExxonMobil makes very low volatile VII's. We see 0w-30, 0w-40 shear down quite a bit. I think it's one of their weaknesses..

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by metroplex:
The 2003 Crown vics DO have 6 qt oil pans vs the 5 qt oil pans for pre-03.

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[JohnBrowning]

G-Man II I agree with your statement about thick oil. All oil weights have their place but thick oils do not do well in cold weather. It is definately important to pick your oil based on temp.

I do not think I could ever bring myself to put 0W20 in an engine!! You must be very brave or have dep pockets!! I can not wait to see UOA because I just can not belive that this oil can protect. Seeing how you drive so gingerly maybe it will protect well. I would like to see it do well. If an oil this thin can hold up it would be nice to have in the crankcase dureing winter in my other car!

 

[Jelly]

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:

I do not think I could ever bring myself to put 0W20 in an engine!! You must be very brave or have dep pockets!! I can not wait to see UOA because I just can not belive that this oil can protect.

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I mind you, I'm not a great fan of thin oils, but I believe the new 0w-20 oils can get the job done, BUT, it's gonna heavily rely upon its additive package to get the job done, which means two things:

1. No extended drain intervals - Long intervals = depletion of additive package if no or small amount of makeup oil is used. No additives left will place higher emphasis on base oil to accomplish job, which I don't think a 20 weight can do as well as a thick 30 or 40 weight.

2. "Regular driving" - If drove regularly (and at somewhat normal intervals, as mentioned before), and not pushed hard, I believe it can protect as well.

If drove hard, placing higher loads on bearings and the valve-train, the thin fluid film will be pushed out and the extreme-pressure/boundary lubrication additives will be relied upon to once again accomplish the job. Over time, if driven hard, the additives will deplete at a high rate, causing higher wear numbers.

Just my two cents.

Feel free to point out my errors.