Mixed Oils for my 2006 Honda Ody i-VTEC and VCM?

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2006 Honda Odyssey EX-L (i-VTEC and VCM) with 76K miles on the odo and 7+ years old.

Nothing wrong with the PU 5w-20 that I have been using
and the 0w-20 Napa Syn that is currently in there, but with PU not around any more for a reasonable Walmart pricepoint, I am forced to look at options and while there are numerous, I am thinking of trying the CATERHAM blend or thereabouts.

I already have acquired a couple of cases of TGMO 0w-20 syn and various other 0w-20 SNs (Napa Syn, M1-AFE, M1-EP and PP). I am still within the return window on all the oils except TGMO (and I need that anyway for my new camry hybrid ) so if a blend makes more sense for longer OCIs for my Honda Ody application (discussed later in this post) , then I would like to explore that option.

What do you think of the following in my application (discussed later in this post):
1. CATERHAM blend (TGMO 0w-20 SN + Mobil-1 0w-40 SN)
2. TGMO 0w-20 SN + Mobil-1 5w-30 EP SN (60/40)
3. TGMO 0w-20 + Mobil-1 AFE 0w-30
4. Mobil-1 AFE 0w-20 + Mobil-1 0w-40


Note that I am NOT asking whether mixing oils is a good idea or not, so let’s not get there unless the specific mixes that I am talking about are grossly detrimental. I understand that there are trade-offs in mixes with the possibility of losing in one additive area while benefiting in another! Let’s just say I am open to mixing oils, especially within similar formulations…

My Application:

My Honda Ody is spec-ed for 5w-20 and sees severe service as below:

* Approximately 10K Annual Mileage, will only go up from here on as I am wrapping up my Masters and will be venturing out more often with the family. eWifey drivs 90% of this mileage (kinda important factor as you will read later in the post).

* At least 6 and sometimes more short trips averaging 3 miles spread through the day

* "Cold" starts with no warm-up time (I know...it's the wife, but to her credit it's always a race against time with the kids to get them where they need to before the deadline!). The relief SFO Bay Area, so the "Cold" is not arctic cold but op-temp cold starts, although temps do drop pretty low in the early AMs on a few days.

* Wife thinks she's a race car driver and thinks she is driving an F1 on the track. All starts (regardless of whether they are from stops or slow-downs) are literally accelerator-to-the-floor starts! I have tried...but hasn't helped...I cringe every single time I am in the passenger seat with her in the drivers!

* Summer sees the Ody driven on a few long trips (1K miles avg per trip) on extended 6 hour+ non-stop drives at fast speeds...Trips are in Southern CA, Nevada, Arizona kinda heat! Many a times the outside temps are in high 90s with some even low 100s. At least one trip can be a bit dusty...

* Winters see a few trips in the snow (yes we get that in some areas in CA, for ex. Lake Tahoe) and these are few days in length and not day trips. The temps can be pretty low near zero!

Oil History: Honda 5w-20 first 25K miles and then PU 5w-20 SM grade (2008 purchase when I think the formulation was stronger than the revision) until now (76K miles)

Oil Filters History: Honda A01 first 25K miles and PureOne filter (40 microns media for the specific filter for this van) after then changed with every oil change.

OCI History
: Maintance minder OCI till 60K miles and 6K, 10K for the two after then.

Oil Consumption
: Almost none on average, although I may have lost under a quart over the last 10K OCI (I say may have because the car was at a dealer who noted in the inspection that oil level low and needed change, and I stupidly rushed to DIY change oil forgetting to check, but almost no oil loss through 66K miles on the odo)

Again, nothing wrong with the 0w-20s SN alone, but maybe one of the above mixes might extend a benefit over the 0w-20 standalone, otherwise I am all set with the 0w-20s from a few different brands.
 
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Just wanted to put the "wife thinks she is in a race" aspect in the right context...what I mean is she accelerates from stops and slowdowns with a pedal-to-the-floor, but beyond that is a speed limit and safe driver!

(Just in case the wife happens to read this thread!
smile.gif
)
 
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Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
1. CATERHAM blend (TGMO 0w-20 SN + Mobil-1 0w-40 SN)


It seems to have a good following, both are good oils so this would be my choice.
I have run 0w40 alone in these engines as well as 5w30 and 0w30 all without issue, just let let anyone talk you into a dino oil with this engine it can be very costly indeed.

Its very important to replace the PCV valve at regular intervals on these engines.
I will be tearing into another one within the next week to fix someones poor oil choice and OCI. Dont go over 5K OCI with these engines even with synthetic, they beat hades out of the oil.
I keep saying this will be the last one i do but they always seem to find me. lol
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Its very important to replace the PCV valve at regular intervals on these engines.
I will be tearing into another one within the next week to fix someones poor oil choice and OCI. Dont go over 5K OCI with these engines even with synthetic, they beat hades out of the oil.
I keep saying this will be the last one i do but they always seem to find me. lol


What percentage of the VCM engines have this problem? What is the poor oil choice and OCI that causes the problem? What are the design characteristics that beat hades out of the oil?
 
@Krisz: But wouldn't it also stress the engine more than otherwise? I don't see how that can be beneficial from a wear standpoint!

@Trav - Thanks. 0w-40 all by itself...wow! That's almost twice as heavy over spec at op-temps (although the optemps on this engine may not be as high to get the 0w-40 to it's 40 weight.). Were the heavier oils used for an extended period to draw a diligent conclusion the twice as heavier than spec oils did not do any harm?

Any others with thoughts on the mixes?
 
Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
@Krisz: But wouldn't it also stress the engine more than otherwise? I don't see how that can be beneficial from a wear standpoint!

@Trav - Thanks. 0w-40 all by itself...wow! That's almost twice as heavy over spec at op-temps (although the optemps on this engine may not be as high to get the 0w-40 to it's 40 weight.). Were the heavier oils used for an extended period to draw a diligent conclusion the twice as heavier than spec oils did not do any harm?

Any others with thoughts on the mixes?


Its better for the engine than a little old lady / man putting back and fourth to church every sunday. Engines like to be brought up to temperature and run hard.
 
Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
@Krisz: But wouldn't it also stress the engine more than otherwise? I don't see how that can be beneficial from a wear standpoint!


Unless the car is hammered right from the start, there should be no concern with extra wear. Most people drive fairly gently at the beginning because they are on the residential street or the parking lot or they hit some red lights. That's usually a sufficient time to get the oil circulating and picking up heat from the engine. In winter that warm up time is significantly increased, but unless the car is driven really hard and to red line (I don't see any sane person doing it in winter and on residential streets), it's not a problem at all.

The reason I mentioned that driving hard might be beneficial for this engine is that it seems that most of the stress on oil actually occurs during cylinder deactivation modes. From Trav's description of things he's seen, it seems that it's the deactivated bank that is mostly gunked up with sludge.
But that was just my theory based on what I have read on the subject. By no means it is from personal experience with this engine. If you want personal experience backed by a professional opinion, Trav is your man.
 
FWIW, Here's a quick chart of resulting simple averages for the mixes of some Mobil oils. I decided to save my TGMO for my Camry Hybrid given the good numbers in general for the mobil only mixes!

NOTE: The figures in the chart below are simple averages weighted by percentage in the mix alone and nothing else, so take it as a ballpark range and not as exact scientific measurements. It seems actual calcs would have some bias towards the lower spec of the two oils being mixed, but should be close overall.

These were calculated using the PDS on Mobiloil.com as of 8/21/2013.



Uploaded with ImageShack.com

I think I will go with Mobil 0w-40 and 5w-20EP mix or the Mobil 0w-40 and Mobil 0w-20 AFE mix in 40:60 ratios and save my TGMO for my new camry hybrid exclusively.

The mix helps bump up the HTHS, TBN and calcium quite a bit potentially giving me about a 25% extension in OCI over 0w-20 AFE alone (or the Napa Syn 0w-20 that is currently in there). The extra 35% cost of the mix ($4.50/qt) over the Napa Syn (3.49/qt) will be balanced out by the longer OCI. So while the mix won't save me anything over the discount Napa syn I got, I will create less environmental waste in the process while protecting (at least theoretically) the engine better.

Some might argue that straight Mobil 5w-30 oils (EP, HM) come close or are even slightly better on some fronts straight with no mixing, but the mix excels those two on an overall basis plus I don't want to switch to HM as yet.

Not sure what will I do with my Napa Syn 0w-20 case that I picked up at $3.49/qt last month if I like this Mobil mix too much (hopefully I can sell it at cost or exchange it for parts as I will be out of the return window on the Napa Syn by the time I try the mix).

BTW, Nothing wrong with the Napa Syn! It's currently in the ODY 50:50 with a leftover Valvoline Synpower 5w-30 SM but it's been only 1K miles on it so far. The only problem is the TBN on that seems to be on the lower side (I think it's around 8-ish) while the Mobil mix is around 30% higher with better everything else (at least theoretically)
 
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Originally Posted By: J. A. Rizzo
What percentage of the VCM engines have this problem? What is the poor oil choice and OCI that causes the problem? What are the design characteristics that beat hades out of the oil?


Percent wise who knows, its impossible to tell since all the older 05 and 06 models are now long out of warranty, I see this issue often enough with the 3.5 iVTEC that i can say its definitely not unusual although certain operating conditions seem to magnify the issue.

Conventional oils seem to be a problem, even if it has a lot of detergent properties their high NOAK and their tendency to break down quickly in high heat situations quickly overcome this engines barley adequate PCV system.
Lower NOAK very robust synthetics perform very well in these engines but even with these oils long drains are not something you want to get into with these particular engines.

Just going from what i have seen 5-7K is the max OCI i would dare even on good synthetic, over that i see deposits beginning to reform on what were perfectly clean heads.
The main issue is with engines that see extended operation in "eco" mode and short trippers like would be found with soccer mom operation.
Keeping your foot in it and by default preventing VCM operation greatly reduces these issues but thats unrealistic, you cant be flying around all over the place in a minivan.

Very high front (looking at the engine from the front) cylinder head temps is the problem and what causes lube issues, combine that with a poor PCV system it creates a perfect environment for deposit issues.

Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
Trav - Thanks. 0w-40 all by itself...wow! That's almost twice as heavy over spec at op-temps (although the optemps on this engine may not be as high to get the 0w-40 to it's 40 weight.). Were the heavier oils used for an extended period to draw a diligent conclusion the twice as heavier than spec oils did not do any harm?


Actually 0w40 is spec for this engine in Germany so its not out of its viscosity range.
Mechanically the engine has no problem with 20w oil but i think its possible that 20w from 05 were not a robust as todays offerings.
That being said these engines have some hot spots in certain parts of the engine when in eco mode and it may not be optimal for this engine.

IMHO Honda had an overwhelming desire to appear "green" in the US market and decided 20w would be fine in everything even if it was not optimal for some engines (notice even Toyota didn't start barking up that tree till much later). Without getting into any sort of debate about this its just my opinion.

Mobil 1 0w40 alone runs very well in these engines even in winter with no negative effects on the VTEC or VCM systems. One engine at 180K right now i cleaned at 80K and run on 0w40 the last 100K, deposit and varnish free, no issues whatsoever.
Another is running ESP 5w30 with similar results after 50K.
 
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