minimum wage
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Originally Posted By: Pablo
If raising the minimum pay rate helps everyone, why not make them $15 hour?
I vote for $20/hr. Everyone can live on the big house on the hill.
PS. I do believe it won't be too much longer when we see this happen. When hyperinflation hits everything will rise. Problem is the raises won't keep up with the prices.
If raising the minimum pay rate helps everyone, why not make them $15 hour?
I vote for $20/hr. Everyone can live on the big house on the hill.
PS. I do believe it won't be too much longer when we see this happen. When hyperinflation hits everything will rise. Problem is the raises won't keep up with the prices.
The government just wants the extra payroll tax the increase creates.
Of course, less will be collected.
Of course, less will be collected.
Originally Posted By: Billy007
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
More jobs for China and Mexico.
Whenever they raise the minimun wage, our policies end up creating 0.40 to 0.45 cents an hour jobs in china.
Exactly. If you aren't worth $7.25 an hour, it is illegal for you to work in the US.
Expect poorer service at restaurants, etc. as they cut jobs.
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
More jobs for China and Mexico.
Whenever they raise the minimun wage, our policies end up creating 0.40 to 0.45 cents an hour jobs in china.
Exactly. If you aren't worth $7.25 an hour, it is illegal for you to work in the US.
Expect poorer service at restaurants, etc. as they cut jobs.
Big cities can easily afford minimum wage. Money is relative to where you live. A hotel room in rural Arizona goes for $23 a night, while the same space and quality goes for $60 in a larger town. Small towns die from minimum wage laws. If you look at voting tendencies of people in small towns vs people in large cities, you can probably see what is going on.
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It all depends on your tolerance (as in holding capacity) for an underclass. Minimum wage was great at any pay if you were just waiting for either expansion or attrition to give you a better job. They were waiting rooms.
Now their the end of the road for more and more. I don't think lowering it would compel anyone to hire 4 people where one is needed. Illegals merely gave someone who needed four people ..4 people at a whopping discount. He didn't hire ten of them.
Now their the end of the road for more and more. I don't think lowering it would compel anyone to hire 4 people where one is needed. Illegals merely gave someone who needed four people ..4 people at a whopping discount. He didn't hire ten of them.
There are a lot of trade offs. Pay kids to chase down shopping carts all the time, or have fewer kids and more shopping carts. Pay bag boys or lose some business. Pay cashiers, or technicions to keep the self serve check outs working? There all sorts of ways of getting along without unskilled labor when the price goes up. Once you have invested in equipment, you won't go back when the minimum wage is inflated away.
We are slowly making human beings obsolete.
In Canada a short time ago minimum wage was $7.50/hr and now it is $9.50/hr and going up over $10 by 2010.
It's ridiculous because the only thing it did was increase the costs of goods/gas etc. and generate more sales tax for the Government.
What they should have done was raise the Personal Income Tax deductions limit for lower income earners (Lower income tax for this tax bracket)
Our average ticket at the restaurants has fallen almost 8% and so have the tips because people are feeling the pinch.
I laughed at the Minimum Wage earners who 90% in Canada are 25 or younger, were screaming that they are entitled to a fair wage and how it hasn't been raised in years. Sure they are and that's true, but why not lower the income tax so they take more money home versus screwing the whole economy and generating a ton of revenue for the Government?
So they take home more money, but things are now costing more but they are too stupid to see it because they are distracted by the bigger numbers on their cheques.
It's ridiculous because the only thing it did was increase the costs of goods/gas etc. and generate more sales tax for the Government.
What they should have done was raise the Personal Income Tax deductions limit for lower income earners (Lower income tax for this tax bracket)
Our average ticket at the restaurants has fallen almost 8% and so have the tips because people are feeling the pinch.
I laughed at the Minimum Wage earners who 90% in Canada are 25 or younger, were screaming that they are entitled to a fair wage and how it hasn't been raised in years. Sure they are and that's true, but why not lower the income tax so they take more money home versus screwing the whole economy and generating a ton of revenue for the Government?
So they take home more money, but things are now costing more but they are too stupid to see it because they are distracted by the bigger numbers on their cheques.
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That's what I kinda try and point out. There are liabilities to high productivity. You end up with more and more unneeded people. You have to do something with them.
It's a complex problem that will never have one solution that's going to work out to everyone's satisfaction.
Life is one big merger and acquisition. It's not like the downsized are fleas being kicked off a dog.
It's a complex problem that will never have one solution that's going to work out to everyone's satisfaction.
Life is one big merger and acquisition. It's not like the downsized are fleas being kicked off a dog.
To improve the economy we need a new widget for wasting peoples' "surplus" money. We've invented SUVs, cellphones, bungee jumping, internets, food handed through your car window, flying around the world... it's not enough.
Need a new invention, preferably running on petrochemicals or something else with a long supply chain, and needing warm bodies to support.
Otherwise there'll be millions wandering the woods, turning rocks over, looking for nightcrawlers so they can sell buckets of bait to each other.
Lacking this new inspirational whatever, we can expect the economy to continue to stagnate...
Need a new invention, preferably running on petrochemicals or something else with a long supply chain, and needing warm bodies to support.
Otherwise there'll be millions wandering the woods, turning rocks over, looking for nightcrawlers so they can sell buckets of bait to each other.
Lacking this new inspirational whatever, we can expect the economy to continue to stagnate...
How about a Chia-Pet? ... Oh wait, we already have that.
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Quote:
To improve the economy
Any expansion of economy requires the acquisition of more debt. I think we've got plenty.
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we can expect the economy to continue to stagnate...
After the past 3 or 4 evolution of quench and purge, I'll take a breather if the net result is the same.
To improve the economy
Any expansion of economy requires the acquisition of more debt. I think we've got plenty.
Quote:
we can expect the economy to continue to stagnate...
After the past 3 or 4 evolution of quench and purge, I'll take a breather if the net result is the same.
Improve is not the same as expand.
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Depends on who you talk to. Even in stasis ..we're under a vacuum.
My boy Schiff.
Quote:
Minimum Wage, Maximum Stupidity
By Peter Schiff
In a free market, demand is always a function of price: the higher the price, the lower the demand. What may surprise most politicians is that these rules apply equally to both prices and wages. When employers evaluate their labor and capital needs, cost is a primary factor. When the cost of hiring low-skilled workers moves higher, jobs are lost. Despite this, minimum wage hikes, like the one set to take effect later this month, are always seen as an act of governmental benevolence. Nothing could be further from the truth.
When confronted with a clogged drain, most of us will call several plumbers and hire the one who quotes us the lowest price. If all the quotes are too high, most of us will grab some Drano and a wrench, and have at it. Labor markets work the same way. Before bringing on another worker, an employer must be convinced that the added productivity will exceed the added cost (this includes not just wages, but all payroll taxes and other benefits.) So if an unskilled worker is capable of delivering only $6 per hour of increased productivity, such an individual is legally unemployable with a minimum wage of $7.25 per hour.
Low-skilled workers must compete for employers’ dollars with both skilled workers and capital. For example, if a skilled worker can do a job for $14 per hour that two unskilled workers can do for $6.50 per hour each, then it makes economic sense for the employer to go with the unskilled labor. Increase the minimum wage to $7.25 per hour and the unskilled workers are priced out of their jobs. This dynamic is precisely why labor unions are such big supporters of minimum wage laws. Even though none of their members earn the minimum wage, the law helps protect their members from having to compete with lower-skilled workers.
Employers also have the choice of whether to employ people or machines. For example, an employer can hire a receptionist or invest in an automated answering system. The next time you are screaming obscenities into the phone as you try to have a conversation with a computer, you know what to blame for your frustration.
There are numerous other examples of employers substituting capital for labor simply because the minimum wage has made low-skilled workers uncompetitive. For example, handcarts have replaced skycaps at airports. The main reason fast-food restaurants use paper plates and plastic utensils is to avoid having to hire dishwashers.
As a result, many low-skilled jobs that used to be the first rung on the employment ladder have been priced out of the market. Can you remember the last time an usher showed you to your seat in a dark movie theater? When was the last time someone other than the cashier not only bagged your groceries, but also loaded them into your car? By the way, it won’t be long before the cashiers themselves are priced out of the market, replaced by automated scanners, leaving you to bag your purchases with no help whatsoever.
The disappearance of these jobs has broader economic and societal consequences. First jobs are a means to improve skills so that low skilled workers can offer greater productivity to current or future employers. As their skills grow, so does their ability to earn higher wages. However, remove the bottom rung from the employment ladder and many never have a chance to climb it.
So the next time you are pumping your own gas in the rain, do not just think about the teenager who could have been pumping it for you, think about the auto mechanic he could have become – had the minimum wage not denied him a job. Many auto mechanics used to learn their trade while working as pump jockeys. Between fill-ups, checking tire pressure, and washing windows, they would spend a lot of time helping – and learning from – the mechanics.
Because the minimum wage prevents so many young people (including a disproportionate number of minorities) from getting entry-level jobs, they never develop the skills necessary to command higher paying jobs. As a result, many turn to crime, while others subsist on government aid. Supporters of the minimum wage argue that it is impossible to support a family on the minimum wage. While that is true, it is completely irrelevant, as minimum wage jobs are not designed to support families. In fact, many people earning the minimum wage are themselves supported by their parents.
The way it is supposed to work is that people do not choose to start families until they can earn enough to support them. Lower wage jobs enable workers to eventually acquire the skills necessary to earn wages high enough to support a family. Does anyone really think a kid with a paper route should earn a wage high enough to support a family?
The only way to increase wages is to increase worker productivity. If wages could be raised simply by government mandate, we could set the minimum wage at $100 per hour and solve all problems. It should be clear that, at that level, most of the population would lose their jobs, and the remaining labor would be so expensive that prices for goods and services would skyrocket. That’s the exact burden the minimum wage places on our poor and low-skilled workers, and ultimately every American consumer.
Since our leaders cannot even grasp this simple economic concept, how can we expect them to deal with the more complicated problems that currently confront us?
Quote:
Minimum Wage, Maximum Stupidity
By Peter Schiff
In a free market, demand is always a function of price: the higher the price, the lower the demand. What may surprise most politicians is that these rules apply equally to both prices and wages. When employers evaluate their labor and capital needs, cost is a primary factor. When the cost of hiring low-skilled workers moves higher, jobs are lost. Despite this, minimum wage hikes, like the one set to take effect later this month, are always seen as an act of governmental benevolence. Nothing could be further from the truth.
When confronted with a clogged drain, most of us will call several plumbers and hire the one who quotes us the lowest price. If all the quotes are too high, most of us will grab some Drano and a wrench, and have at it. Labor markets work the same way. Before bringing on another worker, an employer must be convinced that the added productivity will exceed the added cost (this includes not just wages, but all payroll taxes and other benefits.) So if an unskilled worker is capable of delivering only $6 per hour of increased productivity, such an individual is legally unemployable with a minimum wage of $7.25 per hour.
Low-skilled workers must compete for employers’ dollars with both skilled workers and capital. For example, if a skilled worker can do a job for $14 per hour that two unskilled workers can do for $6.50 per hour each, then it makes economic sense for the employer to go with the unskilled labor. Increase the minimum wage to $7.25 per hour and the unskilled workers are priced out of their jobs. This dynamic is precisely why labor unions are such big supporters of minimum wage laws. Even though none of their members earn the minimum wage, the law helps protect their members from having to compete with lower-skilled workers.
Employers also have the choice of whether to employ people or machines. For example, an employer can hire a receptionist or invest in an automated answering system. The next time you are screaming obscenities into the phone as you try to have a conversation with a computer, you know what to blame for your frustration.
There are numerous other examples of employers substituting capital for labor simply because the minimum wage has made low-skilled workers uncompetitive. For example, handcarts have replaced skycaps at airports. The main reason fast-food restaurants use paper plates and plastic utensils is to avoid having to hire dishwashers.
As a result, many low-skilled jobs that used to be the first rung on the employment ladder have been priced out of the market. Can you remember the last time an usher showed you to your seat in a dark movie theater? When was the last time someone other than the cashier not only bagged your groceries, but also loaded them into your car? By the way, it won’t be long before the cashiers themselves are priced out of the market, replaced by automated scanners, leaving you to bag your purchases with no help whatsoever.
The disappearance of these jobs has broader economic and societal consequences. First jobs are a means to improve skills so that low skilled workers can offer greater productivity to current or future employers. As their skills grow, so does their ability to earn higher wages. However, remove the bottom rung from the employment ladder and many never have a chance to climb it.
So the next time you are pumping your own gas in the rain, do not just think about the teenager who could have been pumping it for you, think about the auto mechanic he could have become – had the minimum wage not denied him a job. Many auto mechanics used to learn their trade while working as pump jockeys. Between fill-ups, checking tire pressure, and washing windows, they would spend a lot of time helping – and learning from – the mechanics.
Because the minimum wage prevents so many young people (including a disproportionate number of minorities) from getting entry-level jobs, they never develop the skills necessary to command higher paying jobs. As a result, many turn to crime, while others subsist on government aid. Supporters of the minimum wage argue that it is impossible to support a family on the minimum wage. While that is true, it is completely irrelevant, as minimum wage jobs are not designed to support families. In fact, many people earning the minimum wage are themselves supported by their parents.
The way it is supposed to work is that people do not choose to start families until they can earn enough to support them. Lower wage jobs enable workers to eventually acquire the skills necessary to earn wages high enough to support a family. Does anyone really think a kid with a paper route should earn a wage high enough to support a family?
The only way to increase wages is to increase worker productivity. If wages could be raised simply by government mandate, we could set the minimum wage at $100 per hour and solve all problems. It should be clear that, at that level, most of the population would lose their jobs, and the remaining labor would be so expensive that prices for goods and services would skyrocket. That’s the exact burden the minimum wage places on our poor and low-skilled workers, and ultimately every American consumer.
Since our leaders cannot even grasp this simple economic concept, how can we expect them to deal with the more complicated problems that currently confront us?
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There's a couple of holes in his rhetoric ..but overall it's well argued.
Quote:
the higher the price, the lower the demand.
High prices are a result of demand outpacing supply.
Quote:
Supporters of the minimum wage argue that it is impossible to support a family on the minimum wage.
It is virtually impossible to reliably support oneself on minimum wage ..and there's no assurance that you're living with mom and dad.
Quote:
The only way to increase wages is to increase worker productivity.
Which typically leads to less total employment.
A soothing rhetorical piece ..but, much like our missing member, side steps the fundamentals of lower tier employment.
Quote:
the higher the price, the lower the demand.
High prices are a result of demand outpacing supply.
Quote:
Supporters of the minimum wage argue that it is impossible to support a family on the minimum wage.
It is virtually impossible to reliably support oneself on minimum wage ..and there's no assurance that you're living with mom and dad.
Quote:
The only way to increase wages is to increase worker productivity.
Which typically leads to less total employment.
A soothing rhetorical piece ..but, much like our missing member, side steps the fundamentals of lower tier employment.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
There's a couple of holes in his rhetoric ..but overall it's well argued.
Quote:
the higher the price, the lower the demand.
High prices are a result of demand outpacing supply.
in a competitive free market, which this is not
There's a couple of holes in his rhetoric ..but overall it's well argued.
Quote:
the higher the price, the lower the demand.
High prices are a result of demand outpacing supply.
in a competitive free market, which this is not
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
Higher min wage = more people on the dole = more dependent voters
What about dropping minimum wages to Chinese level ($1 an hour) and stop all outsourcing?
That'll make all voters independent no? Or how about lowering the minimum wage to $0.5? That'll make the Chinese outsource their job to the US.
Higher min wage = more people on the dole = more dependent voters
What about dropping minimum wages to Chinese level ($1 an hour) and stop all outsourcing?
That'll make all voters independent no? Or how about lowering the minimum wage to $0.5? That'll make the Chinese outsource their job to the US.
Panda,
Not bad ideas. Of course, I believe that you are tongue in cheek.
Not bad ideas. Of course, I believe that you are tongue in cheek.
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