Military Is Looking For 50,000 New .30 Rifles

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Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
The best answer is in between, something in 6.something caliber with a very high ballistic coefficient and high chamber pressure.


If you consider only ballistics, then, sure.

But procurement is important, logistics wins wars, and we are part of an alliance that already has standardized ammo.

7.62x51

That's the good choice when considering all the factors.


No skin off my back. I'm heavily invested in both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO as it is, in AR15 and -10 platforms. A 6.x weirdcat caliber would put me at a disadvantage
lol.gif
 
Me too!

And in battle rifles, if you want to include older versions, I'm invested in:

5.56mm
7.62x51
7.5x55 (which is actually a .308 bullet)
.30-06
8x57
And the real caliber:
.45-70!

While I like all my rifles, and I am partial to older military rifles, if I had to grab a single rifle to do everything, it would be my DPMS AP-4 .308. Carbine length, high capacity (Magpul makes a 25 round magazine), light weight (relatively), and very accurate.
 
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I read this somewhere so it's not my fault if it is wrong;
European NATO members wanted a 7mm which would have been the 7mm-08, but USA over-ruled and bought the 30 cal for the rest of us.
The reason was the cost of barrels to convert 30-06 and there was no weight saving advantage to the smaller 7mm or 6.5mm other than a few grains of bullet weight. How much better ballistic would a 7mm be over a 30 cal bullet of the same weight at 300 yards or closer? Remember we are talking FMJ non-expanding bullets where the size of the hole it makes counts. I think an 8MM-08 would be an improvement over the 308. Hmmm, 8x51 sounds too metric for 'Mericans. Grains instead of grams? Still counting flax seeds?
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Ethan1
What else do you want me to say?


To be honest with you, I really don't care either way.


It's just that you keep asking, so...
 
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
I read this somewhere so it's not my fault if it is wrong;
European NATO members wanted a 7mm which would have been the 7mm-08, but USA over-ruled and bought the 30 cal for the rest of us.
The reason was the cost of barrels to convert 30-06 and there was no weight saving advantage to the smaller 7mm or 6.5mm other than a few grains of bullet weight. How much better ballistic would a 7mm be over a 30 cal bullet of the same weight at 300 yards or closer? Remember we are talking FMJ non-expanding bullets where the size of the hole it makes counts. I think an 8MM-08 would be an improvement over the 308. Hmmm, 8x51 sounds too metric for 'Mericans. Grains instead of grams? Still counting flax seeds?


Thales, the company that bought out Australian Defence Industries some time ago (think Lithgow SMLE, they own the range that every one was test fired at, and I used to shoot on) were testing something in the 6-6.5mm range a few years ago before I lost touch with the place.

If US is heading back to .30, wonder if that project will be stillborn.

Pretty sure that what they were playing with was supposed to work through the Austeyr.
 
This thread topic is 50,000 rifles, not several million. I'm hinting that going smaller than .308 is the wrong way.
In the 1890s, the 6.5x55 was chosen for a combination of ballistics, lethality and the number of rounds an infantry
soldier could carry on the field. I don't think that a 6.5 or 7mm would be much of a weight or cost saving if a longer range projectile is the goal.
A bore increase from .223 to .244 would make a slightly bigger hole in the target.
Spray and pray for a golden BB is a modern invention, and the .223 fits that roll. Yes, a wounded soldier takes resources,
but stopping a threat trumps logistics and attrition.
My pick is either stay with the 7.62x51 or go up to either 338 Federal or split the difference with an 8x51.
Make mine a 325 WSM for up close 'n personal.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: spiritrider
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: spiritrider
Marine shot/kill ratio increased 250% from WW2 to Vietnam. Army shot/kill ratio increased 800%......and let's just say billt406 is clue challenged.

So you are trying to tell us that the 50,000 rounds to one kill ratio our military is presently enjoying, is including this supposed 800% IMPROVMENT? Which means, using your numbers, it use to be 1 kill to 800,000 ROUNDS? And I'm, "clue challenged"? Right.

Check your math skills. If the shot/kill ratio increases, then the previous ratio would be lower and the new ratio would be higher. Certainly not an improvement.


Answer to this one is going to be ... priceless ...
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The forumla involves the use of cardinal gram meters and interlocking swerving dingle alarms.
 
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
This thread topic is 50,000 rifles, not several million. I'm hinting that going smaller than .308 is the wrong way.
In the 1890s, the 6.5x55 was chosen for a combination of ballistics, lethality and the number of rounds an infantry
soldier could carry on the field. I don't think that a 6.5 or 7mm would be much of a weight or cost saving if a longer range projectile is the goal.
A bore increase from .223 to .244 would make a slightly bigger hole in the target.
Spray and pray for a golden BB is a modern invention, and the .223 fits that roll. Yes, a wounded soldier takes resources,
but stopping a threat trumps logistics and attrition.
My pick is either stay with the 7.62x51 or go up to either 338 Federal or split the difference with an 8x51.
Make mine a 325 WSM for up close 'n personal.




If history serves my memory correctly, one can only look to the Boer War for an interesting comparison. The British and their .303s were being shot to pieces by the South Afrikan Boers using their 7x57m/m Mausers. The 7m/m had the range. IIRC the U.S. met the same problem in Cuba in the late 19th Century where our .30 Krag rifles were outclassed by the Spanish 7m/m Mauser (that involved reloading ability as well as fire range and accuracy).

After the Boer War, the Brits immediately started working on a .276 caliber cartridge to replace the .303, but that inconvenience called WW-I put a damper on things. The Garand was originally designed for a .276 caliber cartridge, but Gen. MacArthur, as army chief of staff, put the stop to that in favor of the .30/06. Even the Russians explored the 6.5m/m Federov after WW-I to replace the 7.62x54R.

In any case, FMJ projectiles tend to travel through the person causing inconvenient results. It matters not whether it's the 6.5 Swedish Mauser or your 6.5 Grendel, your 6.8SPC or the .276 Enfield - the bullets rip through you all the same. The small caliber projectile isn't a new concept . . . it's one that has been fraught with controversy and merit from both sides for over a century from bureaucrats, armchair experts, and intransigent Ordnance personnel.

As originally designed and fielded, the .223 in the original AR15 deployed under Project Agile used a 55gr bullet in a 1:14 twist. The result was the bullet tumbling on impact and bouncing around inside the target, dumping all of its energy in the target. The wounds were somewhat horrific. Yes, it was a 300 meter gun, and yes the bullet was unstable as you-know-what, but it worked. Then folks started tinkering with it. The overlooked part of the physics is that as you increase a bullet's stability, you decrease its lethality.
 
The concept of the FMJ was to make wounds less horrific and simply take the fight out of the enemy, eventually.
FMJs and 22 caliber are not allowed for hunting for the opposite reason, they are inhumane.
A deer shot with a .223 FMJ will run off and die a week later or be taken down by coyotes that night.
That same round may pass completely through a charging elephant without slowing him down.
 
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Originally Posted By: userfriendly
A deer shot with a .223 FMJ will run off and die a week later or be taken down by coyotes that night.
That same round may pass completely through a charging elephant without slowing him down.


FMJ's are the preferred round for hunting African Elephant.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/hunting-elephant-with-the-505-gibbs.7016/

"I recovered three of the Woodleigh 600 grain FMJ bullets from the dead elephant. They penetrated 53 to 55 inches after passing completely through the skull on frontal brain shots. Performance of rifle and ammo was excellent."
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Me too!

And in battle rifles, if you want to include older versions, I'm invested in:

5.56mm
7.62x51
7.5x55 (which is actually a .308 bullet)
.30-06
8x57
And the real caliber:
.45-70!

While I like all my rifles, and I am partial to older military rifles, if I had to grab a single rifle to do everything, it would be my DPMS AP-4 .308. Carbine length, high capacity (Magpul makes a 25 round magazine), light weight (relatively), and very accurate.

Nice selection there Astro.
cheers3.gif

Yep, the 308 is the do it all round, and the go-to rifle for sure. I love those SR25 magazines! Did you get in on the cheap Magpul 20 round magazines from that store that got flooded? (JSE Surplus, lol) They were like eight dollars a piece.
 
Built 460; Theoretically both the .223 and .505 FMJs should penetrate about the same distance. I'll take the one that makes the big hole in targets large & small. Military can't use soft point expanding, so a bigger hole makes sense to me. You wouldn't hunt elephants with a pea shooter, and human targets shoot back. Even if you shot them first with a pea shooter. Put them down so they stay down.
 
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Built 460; Theoretically both the .223 and .505 FMJs should penetrate about the same distance.


Keep in mind that a 500 grain solid from a .460 Weatherby Magnum will penetrate 60" of soft pine. Somehow I rather doubt a .22 will do the same.
 
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Me too!

And in battle rifles, if you want to include older versions, I'm invested in:

5.56mm
7.62x51
7.5x55 (which is actually a .308 bullet)
.30-06
8x57
And the real caliber:
.45-70!

While I like all my rifles, and I am partial to older military rifles, if I had to grab a single rifle to do everything, it would be my DPMS AP-4 .308. Carbine length, high capacity (Magpul makes a 25 round magazine), light weight (relatively), and very accurate.

Nice selection there Astro.
cheers3.gif

Yep, the 308 is the do it all round, and the go-to rifle for sure. I love those SR25 magazines! Did you get in on the cheap Magpul 20 round magazines from that store that got flooded? (JSE Surplus, lol) They were like eight dollars a piece.


Thanks - I do like the vintage rifles...but the .308 is about the best all-purpose round there is...and while I didn't luck out and get the SR-25 magazines at anywhere near that good of a price, I did get about two dozen, for, you know, the next apocalypse...or whatever...

And I've got enough ammo to load them all full several times...
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
A deer shot with a .223 FMJ will run off and die a week later or be taken down by coyotes that night.
That same round may pass completely through a charging elephant without slowing him down.


FMJ's are the preferred round for hunting African Elephant.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/hunting-elephant-with-the-505-gibbs.7016/

"I recovered three of the Woodleigh 600 grain FMJ bullets from the dead elephant. They penetrated 53 to 55 inches after passing completely through the skull on frontal brain shots. Performance of rifle and ammo was excellent."
I just read that article,and the rounds he recovered looked to have no deformation at all even after going through the skull. That is one solid bullet!
 
I have only seen Woodleigh bullets at gun shows. I have 13 left from a box of 50 220 grain 30 cal Weldcore that I swapped a pound of powder for. Those will go into new 300 WSM brass with a moderate load of around 2550 fps, (E=3175) to go in a BLR take down.
The other 37, 20x300 RUM @ 2850, and 17x300 Win @ 2700 fps. I thought there would be little use in cranking the power up on a short range RN bullet.
The BLR/Zeiss is a new "used" acquisition my son bought that somehow ended up on my Canadian Tire credit card.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
A deer shot with a .223 FMJ will run off and die a week later or be taken down by coyotes that night.
That same round may pass completely through a charging elephant without slowing him down.


FMJ's are the preferred round for hunting African Elephant.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/hunting-elephant-with-the-505-gibbs.7016/

"I recovered three of the Woodleigh 600 grain FMJ bullets from the dead elephant. They penetrated 53 to 55 inches after passing completely through the skull on frontal brain shots. Performance of rifle and ammo was excellent."


600 Woodliegh was made for very rich folks who needed to spend $$$$ on a rifle that would be used once a year.

If you have a Filipino friend, ask them what they use to hunt elephants in that part of the world,
the answer might shock you, .22 caliber will be on the list of calibers used.

How many poacher in africa do you think owns big bore rifle?
 
Originally Posted By: stockrex
How many poacher in africa do you think owns big bore rifle?


What poachers or poor Filipino peasants use is irrelevant. Most African countries that issue Elephant tags have, ".40 caliber laws" in place that won't allow you to take "Big 5" African game species with anything less. Some won't even allow the .375 H&H to be used on Cape Buffalo, and other dangerous game. There is a reason for that. Poachers worry about getting caught. Not making humane kills. And to try and suggest that a .22 has the same knockdown effect, and killing ability as a .458 Win. Mag. is simply foolish.

And a African big game hunter who spends over $50K on a Elephant tag, along with another $30K+ on a African Safari, isn't going to worry about the cost of a rifle, or the ammunition that goes into it. Regardless of how often he uses it.
 
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