Mercon LV UOA 57k Ford Transit 250 EB with 6r80 trans

[Impatient]

I’m surprised at how few UOA’s there are for Mercon LV, or any ATF’s in the 6r80 ...except for one guy checking every 15k (Fusion...not 6r80), and the YouTube Amsoil guy posted by StevieC. Anyway, IMHO, this “lifetime” fluid would never make it to 150k...the official drain recommendation. This was the factory fill. No towing, 75% highway, some dirt road use. FYI, on Transit you cannot drop the pan without removing a large suspension subframe crossmember. Engineering marvel.

More humble advice...don’t believe Ford recommendation. I think I stretched it as far as (or further than) I should. After this sample (taken in February), dealer tried to F me. I made appointment for complete fluid exchange, was VERY explicit what I wanted, then caught them doing a partial drain & fill...they said their machine had “just” broken.

I still intend to get full fluid exchange...but supposedly only dealers can do the Transit...no Indy I called would / could do it.

 

[wpod]

Is this the first oil change?

 

[Impatient]

Factory fill. Better than this (from YouTube), but don’t understand the high Manganese.

 

[fsdork]

Have you given any thought to having a pan with a drain plug installed, and doing drain and fills instead of a complete exchange? I get that it's a bit of a compromise, but it would allow you to bypass the dealer who you (understandably) don't trust.

 

[heynow]

I did a UOA on a BMW X5 with the nearly identical zf 6hp transmission. It was the factory fluid at 120kmi. Wasn't pretty.

120kmi factory fill ATF ZF 6HP28X 2013 BMW X5 35d

2013 BMW X5 35d twin turbo diesel 120kmi Report is from the factory fill ATF Transmission is a ZF 6hp28x BMW says that you never need to change the fluid, though ZF later made a recommendation of 60kmi OCI's. The results are not pretty.

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[Impatient]

Yeah, Heynow, I think I read your BMW experience. That Hans and Gruber (not their real names) video was funny, yet illuminating. I’m on the right track, if I can get a dealer to cooperate...I think I may have caught this just in time...but I want a good clean fill...not 50%, or 60%, at this point. Maybe drain / refill from this point on.

But, can anyone knowledgeable comment on the UOA results themselves?

 

[bullwinkle]

You need a heated exchange machine to exchange all the ATF on a Transit, which only the dealer will have. I’m not sure about getting the pan off one, that giant stupid K member under the transmission would stop that. I had to settle for sucking out & replacing 4-5 quarts & adding Lubegard Red on mine.

 

[Impatient]

Have you given any thought to having a pan with a drain plug installed, and doing drain and fills instead of a complete exchange? I get that it's a bit of a compromise, but it would allow you to bypass the dealer who you (understandably) don't trust.

IF I have the front suspension crossmember subframe off for some other reason, yes, I will have pan dropped, new filter, perhaps drainplug retrofitted. True, draining is slightly easier than sucking it out the “poor excuse for a dipstick” with a vacuum.

NOW, if your advice were directed at Ford themselves, I would endorse it 100%. Put an F-n drainplug in from the factory. It’s practically criminal that no drain, no real dipstick that can be checked without subjecting yourself to severe burn from turbo exhaust, and then hiding the pan with a structural subframe crossmember that requires major disassembly. They should be forced to include an outboard filter on the cooler line(s)...something I will look into retrofitting.

Now, about those wear metals and “oxidation” concerns....

 

[Impatient]

I found this older post...I guess I wasn’t looking back far enough.

2010 FX4 | 6R80 | MC MERCON LV | 58,155 Miles

Gang, Here is the second UOA from the transmission of my FX4. Considering the amount of towing that I have done, I am not sure if it gets better than this. Thoughts and comments always welcome! Code: Blackstone comments: Things are still looking good in this sample from your...

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[MolaKule]

I’m surprised at how few UOA’s there are for Mercon LV, or any ATF’s in the 6r80 ...except for one guy checking every 15k (Fusion...not 6r80), and the YouTube Amsoil guy posted by StevieC. Anyway, IMHO, this “lifetime” fluid would never make it to 150k...the official drain recommendation. This was the factory fill. No towing, 75% highway, some dirt road use. FYI, on Transit you cannot drop the pan without removing a large suspension subframe crossmember. Engineering marvel.

More humble advice...don’t believe Ford recommendation. I think I stretched it as far as (or further than) I should. After this sample (taken in February), dealer tried to F me. I made appointment for complete fluid exchange, was VERY explicit what I wanted, then caught them doing a partial drain & fill...they said their machine had “just” broken.

I still intend to get full fluid exchange...but supposedly only dealers can do the Transit...no Indy I called would / could do it.

if this is an OEM FF, the oxidation is not too bad for 57k but the Manganese level is surprising. Not only is it alloyed with steel but it is also alloyed with aluminum and is synergistic with copper in aluminum alloy case bodies.

I would do drains and refills and in the process switch to an LV fluid that has more phosphorus anti-wear chemistry such as Amsoil ATL, Redline D6, or even MaxLife ATF.

 

[bruce381]

could be friction material?

 

[MolaKule]

The Wet Clutch Disk contains the friction material, a cellulose composite, which would contribute to solid particulates.

Manganese could also be from the Wet Clutch Plate, a heat treated spring type steel alloy that contains a fairly high level of manganese:

Carbon 0.65-0.75%
Manganese 0.65-0.85%
Silicon 0.05-0.35%
Phosphorus 0.045% Max
Sulfur 0.025%

 

[Impatient]

The other 6r80 UOA’s I referenced had comparable Manganese results. I wasn’t focused on Mn when looking, but I dont think I saw such results in the 6r35. I didn’t look for Mn in the GM or BMW versions of the ZF either.

 

[Impatient]

if this is an OEM FF, the oxidation is not too bad for 57k but the Manganese level is surprising. Not only is it alloyed with steel but it is also alloyed with aluminum and is synergistic with copper in aluminum alloy case bodies.

I would do drains and refills and in the process switch to an LV fluid that has more phosphorus anti-wear chemistry such as Amsoil ATL, Redline D6, or even MaxLife ATF.

so, evidently I will do partial drain & fills. Do I understand this correctly: it would be OK to run 20-25% Amsoil ATL (the correct lower viscosity one...”recommended for Mercon LV”) with the rest being Motorcraft Mercon LV? Approx 30%-37% factory original (60k miles) would remain, and the rest (40-50%) new Mercon LV. My math may be wrong but this is 2-3 drain & fills (in addition to a botched one done at the dealer), with the final one being all or mostly Amsoil. I would plan to leave this mix in for another 30k miles. Cost and lack of trust preclude doing full Dealer flush...which I already tried (Dealer failed me).

 

[MolaKule]

My math may be wrong but this is 2-3 drain & fills (in addition to a botched one done at the dealer), with the final one being all or mostly Amsoil. I would plan to leave this mix in for another 30k miles. Cost and lack of trust preclude doing full Dealer flush...which I already tried (Dealer failed me).

3 drain and fills with your choice of LV would be advisable.

 

[ripcord]

Fluid's cheap and and 6r80 transmissions aren't, so I use a Mityvac and do a partial replacement (about 4.5 quarts) on our Expedition every 30 or 40k. So far, that's been enough to keep the fluid nice and pink. 210K and still shifting nice.

These transmissions have a thermostatically controlled valve that restricts the flow of oil to the cooler until it gets up to temp, so unless you own the special exchange machine that pre-heats the fluid, you can't do an exchange. Technically you could, but you'd have to get the new fluid boiling hot before you poured it in. I wonder if the dealer Impatient took his van to even owns the heated exchanger?

 

[tcp71]

I have the dorman pan with plug on my F150, if you ever get the crossmember off, I would recommend it.

 

[Impatient]

These transmissions have a thermostatically controlled valve that restricts the flow of oil to the cooler until it gets up to temp, so unless you own the special exchange machine that pre-heats the fluid, you can't do an exchange. Technically you could, but you'd have to get the new fluid boiling hot before you poured it in. I wonder if the dealer Impatient took his van to even owns the heated exchanger?

The dealer who “scruud” me said all the right things about a machine that heated the fluid, exchanged it all thru cooler lines, etc, but one theory is they have the machine, but not the fittings needed for the Transit. So when it came time to actually do the work, they discovered they couldn’t. Maybe existing F150 connectors can’t be used because of interference with Transit body or other plumbing...which makes me leery of the next dealer promising a “flush.” Someone planted that notion in my brain, not the result of my “super sleuth brain.” Believe me, I want a flush (and a filter change)...enough to forego any Amsoil benefit. But dealer gibberish and a suspension crossmember say that cant happen.

 

[cdlamb]

I plan on submitting a sample of the ULV for the 10R80. Going to pull a sample, & also submit a Virgin oil for comparison. I will share my results when I get them back

About 100,000 kilometers on factory oil.

If it shows significant variance from new, I will probably pull the pan & drain what I can, & refill.

 

[Impatient]

I bailed out on doing self-drain/fill...this time (@~57k miles). Chose dealer exchange/flush...reset contaminants/wear metals to near zero (well, as low as possible). Will do future self-drain/fill more timely to keep fluid in decent shape...maybe at 25-30k intervals. With any luck, I will never have to do a filter change...given complicated suspension crossmember removal required to drop pan. Now, on to coolant refresh and differential drain/fill. Although neither dealer I’ve worked with gets A+ grade, this dealer (B grade) has been much better than the dealer (D grade) where I originally bought the van.