Is the brand worth the price we pay, and how reliable are they? Thank you
Mercedes Benz
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They are good till they break. Many shops will not work on aeurotrash as we call them. Need special tools and know how to repair them. They also like to break more while in the shop and the shop gets blamed.
If anything electronic quits working it usually stays broken for the rest of the cars life.
If anything electronic quits working it usually stays broken for the rest of the cars life.
Mercedes are no longer more reliable than anything else, if anything they are middle of the pack these days and very expensive to repair . I think there are 2 reasons for that, one is too much unnecessary complexity and the other is, in European terms at least, nothing like as expensive as they used to be relative to other cars.
We have recently covered this in some detail.
Here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/mercedes.339383/
Part of the problem with owning a complex European car like Mercedes is that the manufacturer presumes mechanics who will work on it are trained individuals, not goobers who don’t read manuals and proceed to screw up the car by using the wrong tools, failing to follow procedure, substituting lousy parts, and then cover their own ineptitude and assuage their insecurity by calling a Mercedes “Eurotrash”.
Goobers will ruin a good car in short order, and undoing their shoddy work takes both time and money.
A good friend drives a 2007 Mercedes E350. Bought new. 175,000 miles on it. Looks beautiful, with a great interior and paint. It is maintained by trained technicians, not goobers, and has cost him less per year in maintenance costs than any other car he’s ever owned, including his F150 and his Toyotas. He’s got the spreadsheets to prove it.
If you’re shopping for a Mercedes, you should consider one that has all the stamps in the book. Whether there from dealer techs, or proper independent shops, you’ll know it hasn’t been assaulted and ruined by a goober.
I just spent a year helping a bud restore and repair a 1975 Mercedes 450SL. Beautiful car. It had been “goobered” in the past - we found SAE fasteners, cheap fixes, shortcuts, failing parts, missing bits, and damaged bits, all signs that a goober mechanic had worked on it.
We fixed or replaced every bit with proper parts, installed as Mercedes intended. It’s now a good car. Took some time.
And some money.
Here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/mercedes.339383/
Part of the problem with owning a complex European car like Mercedes is that the manufacturer presumes mechanics who will work on it are trained individuals, not goobers who don’t read manuals and proceed to screw up the car by using the wrong tools, failing to follow procedure, substituting lousy parts, and then cover their own ineptitude and assuage their insecurity by calling a Mercedes “Eurotrash”.
Goobers will ruin a good car in short order, and undoing their shoddy work takes both time and money.
A good friend drives a 2007 Mercedes E350. Bought new. 175,000 miles on it. Looks beautiful, with a great interior and paint. It is maintained by trained technicians, not goobers, and has cost him less per year in maintenance costs than any other car he’s ever owned, including his F150 and his Toyotas. He’s got the spreadsheets to prove it.
If you’re shopping for a Mercedes, you should consider one that has all the stamps in the book. Whether there from dealer techs, or proper independent shops, you’ll know it hasn’t been assaulted and ruined by a goober.
I just spent a year helping a bud restore and repair a 1975 Mercedes 450SL. Beautiful car. It had been “goobered” in the past - we found SAE fasteners, cheap fixes, shortcuts, failing parts, missing bits, and damaged bits, all signs that a goober mechanic had worked on it.
We fixed or replaced every bit with proper parts, installed as Mercedes intended. It’s now a good car. Took some time.
And some money.
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Well stated, Astro.
Unfortunately, there are too many hacks out there masquerading as competent mechanics.
Unfortunately, there are too many hacks out there masquerading as competent mechanics.
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Excellent insight. I have been digging in a lot on lux cars; mainly BMW, MB, Lexus, with some attention to Volvo. Maintenance on all of them is key and if you don't? You will pay a steep price later. That is a resounding lesson many owners have stated time and time again. I don't so much fear the maintenance, I can swing that but I do fear the life expectancy of CAD plastic parts (they all do it!!) and I fear a 5k headlight repair bill for some of the outlandish, but very cool and effective systems in these vehicles.
It is unlikely the only issue with them are unqualified people working on them; as stated "Part of the problem....." Likely there are numerous others
Zee09
$200 Site Donor 2023
Astro 14
Hung out with my neighbor with an older E class today and he said the same thing....
Hung out with my neighbor with an older E class today and he said the same thing....
The W123 and W124 were incredibly durable and reliable. But they were built when the preponderance of other cars were not built nearly as well.
That’s no longer the case. Mercedes’ cars are still amazing for their engineering, but their reliability is only average.
For example, the M275 V-12, and the follow on M279, is, hand down, an amazing engine. It has no equal among major manufacturers. No other big car company aspires to build something like that. That’s Mercedes for you.
But Mercedes, and Audi, BMW, even VW, do not tolerate goobers well. Take your Mercedes to a shop that doesn’t have the Mercedes service information (not the generic subscription, but the actual Mercedes computer with the service subscription) and you’re going to get a goober who thinks they know enough about cars to do the job without reference to Mercedes information.
That goober’s inept approach, born of ignorance and arrogance, won’t work out well. What works on the F150, or Toyota, that he’s seen a hundred times may not work well on the MB.
So, he shorts out a cooling fan module by failing to take Mercedes’ recommended step of disconnecting a relay, or the battery, before removing the fan, and his bonehead move costs the customer hundreds of unnecessary cost over runs in parts through his molestation of the car, and then claims it’s “eurotrash” because he was too stupid to look up the procedure, and that Mercedes cars break while in the shop.
Sure, Mercedes break. Stuff goes wrong.
But they’re also assaulted by tool-wielding clowns that cause more harm than good.
Look, you wouldn’t let a vet tech do gall bladder surgery on you, even if they’ve sewed up a gall bladder removal a hundred times. Different chassis and different makes require different training and different skills.
That’s no longer the case. Mercedes’ cars are still amazing for their engineering, but their reliability is only average.
For example, the M275 V-12, and the follow on M279, is, hand down, an amazing engine. It has no equal among major manufacturers. No other big car company aspires to build something like that. That’s Mercedes for you.
But Mercedes, and Audi, BMW, even VW, do not tolerate goobers well. Take your Mercedes to a shop that doesn’t have the Mercedes service information (not the generic subscription, but the actual Mercedes computer with the service subscription) and you’re going to get a goober who thinks they know enough about cars to do the job without reference to Mercedes information.
That goober’s inept approach, born of ignorance and arrogance, won’t work out well. What works on the F150, or Toyota, that he’s seen a hundred times may not work well on the MB.
So, he shorts out a cooling fan module by failing to take Mercedes’ recommended step of disconnecting a relay, or the battery, before removing the fan, and his bonehead move costs the customer hundreds of unnecessary cost over runs in parts through his molestation of the car, and then claims it’s “eurotrash” because he was too stupid to look up the procedure, and that Mercedes cars break while in the shop.
Sure, Mercedes break. Stuff goes wrong.
But they’re also assaulted by tool-wielding clowns that cause more harm than good.
Look, you wouldn’t let a vet tech do gall bladder surgery on you, even if they’ve sewed up a gall bladder removal a hundred times. Different chassis and different makes require different training and different skills.
Having owned MBs I can tell you that they are no longer the cars of the 60s & 70s, bulletproof and long lasting, the biggest fall started with the acquistion of Chrysler and its mentality, I did hope tha MB way of doing business would have dominated, but that was not the case. Having said that the biggest problem MB has here is that people do not follow the recommended maintenace schedule and even when doing it it is not done by qualified mechanics. If one does follow "Religiously" the maintenance laid out by MB they do last and their Paint quality and interior is 2nd to none.
While mercedes is not as good as it was back in the 70s and 80s, Mercedes is still THE German Taxi. "If i want to drive a mercedes, i just call a Taxi!" is a saying here. This cars run long and they run good. The difference is that this cars get maintained exactly "By the Book" from trained mechanics. Astro 14 nailed it with his very good posting. 
Even in Munich, the Headquartes of BMW, Mercedes is the Nr. 1 Brand for Taxi.
Saying this, Toyota Prius and a few Lexus ar used as Taxis here, completly unthinkable a few years ago.
By the way, the Mercedes Dealership here in Munich is just awesome. Maybe explains the higher prices for the cars.
Even in Munich, the Headquartes of BMW, Mercedes is the Nr. 1 Brand for Taxi.
Saying this, Toyota Prius and a few Lexus ar used as Taxis here, completly unthinkable a few years ago.
By the way, the Mercedes Dealership here in Munich is just awesome. Maybe explains the higher prices for the cars.
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Owning both the W211 and the W212, I'd say the W212 is better than the W211, slightly less maintenance on it. The W213 seems to be even better although it's not that old yet.
And it depends what you're paying. I paid slightly under 20k for a 65k 2008 E-350 almost 7 years ago, had a tad under 50k miles on it. Haven't really spent any crazy money on it. One thing both platforms share is that they tend to go through motor mounts, MB uses liquid filled mounts which don't tend to last as long as just your basic solid rubber mounts. That electronics crack is funny, I guess maybe the EIS (electronic ignition system) tends to go along with Comand (Only one M, forget exactly what it's supposed to stand for but basically the entertainment/navigation/sirius system) might flake out. There are companies that will rebuild them for you or you can buy used bits on eBay.
You basically need to know how to diagnose them by getting a scanner than can do MB specific codes or have an indy that can really do it. Otherwise hacks can really destroy things. I didn't think the tools were too specialized, MB likes to use Torx bits and external Torx bolts but aside from that, the tools aren't too specialized for your basic repairs. Basic scanners that do MB specific codes are in the $40-$150 range.
And it depends what you're paying. I paid slightly under 20k for a 65k 2008 E-350 almost 7 years ago, had a tad under 50k miles on it. Haven't really spent any crazy money on it. One thing both platforms share is that they tend to go through motor mounts, MB uses liquid filled mounts which don't tend to last as long as just your basic solid rubber mounts. That electronics crack is funny, I guess maybe the EIS (electronic ignition system) tends to go along with Comand (Only one M, forget exactly what it's supposed to stand for but basically the entertainment/navigation/sirius system) might flake out. There are companies that will rebuild them for you or you can buy used bits on eBay.
You basically need to know how to diagnose them by getting a scanner than can do MB specific codes or have an indy that can really do it. Otherwise hacks can really destroy things. I didn't think the tools were too specialized, MB likes to use Torx bits and external Torx bolts but aside from that, the tools aren't too specialized for your basic repairs. Basic scanners that do MB specific codes are in the $40-$150 range.
The full on Mercedes diagnostic system costs about $10,000 with a $600 a month subscription. Very few independent shops have it. But it’s a requirement for a lot of work. The diagnostic system contains service information as well.
I’ve got a clone, with the multiplexer and cables, running on a Dell laptop. I use it frequently.
If the car has a problem, I can click on the code (OBD code readers are utterly useless on a modern Mercedes, I mean the real code, the Mercedes code) which brings up a series of troubleshooting tests and actuations of various components and run through those.
Then I can fix the problem, replacing a bad part, finding the wiring failure, or recalibrate a component, or reprogram a module. It’s the most important tool in the shop. The goober doesn’t have one. That’s a problem. A big one.
The goober will fire up the parts cannon and hope to get lucky.
That is both expensive for the customer and very unlikely to actually solve the problem. As the goober makes his guesses, unaided by diagnosis, communication with the car, or understanding of the situation, the customer continues to get ripped off, throwing expensive parts at a problem, which makes them upset, while the goober falls back on the “eurotrash” excuse to cover up their own incompetence.
I’ve got a clone, with the multiplexer and cables, running on a Dell laptop. I use it frequently.
If the car has a problem, I can click on the code (OBD code readers are utterly useless on a modern Mercedes, I mean the real code, the Mercedes code) which brings up a series of troubleshooting tests and actuations of various components and run through those.
Then I can fix the problem, replacing a bad part, finding the wiring failure, or recalibrate a component, or reprogram a module. It’s the most important tool in the shop. The goober doesn’t have one. That’s a problem. A big one.
The goober will fire up the parts cannon and hope to get lucky.
That is both expensive for the customer and very unlikely to actually solve the problem. As the goober makes his guesses, unaided by diagnosis, communication with the car, or understanding of the situation, the customer continues to get ripped off, throwing expensive parts at a problem, which makes them upset, while the goober falls back on the “eurotrash” excuse to cover up their own incompetence.
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??????
MB almost went broke and had its worst era in the mid to late 90s before DaimlerChrysler was even a thing. when chrysler fell into their lap they pillaged all its assets and then shot it in the back when they were done. Dr.Fiat found chrysler bleeding out and performed life saving surgery
Unless your a very capable mechanic, great to lease, not to own!
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Someone explain this negative description..."goober". Is this a certified mechanic, able to work on US and Asian vehicles without issue but not trained to touch a Merc? In that case, hardly a "goober". Or maybe it's something else....
JHZR2
Staff member
I own three Mercedes. The newest one has an electronic sensor on an otherwise mechanical fuel injection pump... so you can gauge my era...
But I did buy a new BMW with relatively high end, complex engine... new tech, first year with a new turbo design, etc.
I haven’t had issues with the engine, I have had electronics issues that shouldn’t happen. Case in point three of my four ABS sensors failed for no rhyme or reason, before 30k miles. Why? It’s a simple sensor encased in plastic.
Imagine if I was going to the dealer, having to pay for fancy loaners and coffee and gourmet doughnuts (which my local dealer serves up)... and pay $180-200/hr plus retail for parts.
Now add in if I had to go to the dealer to code the battery each time I replaced it.
Now add in if something really important, say, a water pump was replaced, and now not only is the replacement intensive, but the new one has to be coded to the vehicle’s computer system.
The combination of lacking quality in some parts, and excessive complexity to do other things, is what gives me some level of pause. It’s a set of liabilities that one really needs to be willing to just pay out for, or just get rid of vehicles fairly often.
I love these cars. But keeping one long term is a labor of love. And Im less concerned about the need to replace parts, even if it has some complex aspects to it... it’s the long term digital and control systems, reliant upon certain coding and designs, which will be obsolete, and then the car could well become a paperweight.
Hes, I’m talking about BMW, but I would suspect MB is much of the same.
But I did buy a new BMW with relatively high end, complex engine... new tech, first year with a new turbo design, etc.
I haven’t had issues with the engine, I have had electronics issues that shouldn’t happen. Case in point three of my four ABS sensors failed for no rhyme or reason, before 30k miles. Why? It’s a simple sensor encased in plastic.
Imagine if I was going to the dealer, having to pay for fancy loaners and coffee and gourmet doughnuts (which my local dealer serves up)... and pay $180-200/hr plus retail for parts.
Now add in if I had to go to the dealer to code the battery each time I replaced it.
Now add in if something really important, say, a water pump was replaced, and now not only is the replacement intensive, but the new one has to be coded to the vehicle’s computer system.
The combination of lacking quality in some parts, and excessive complexity to do other things, is what gives me some level of pause. It’s a set of liabilities that one really needs to be willing to just pay out for, or just get rid of vehicles fairly often.
I love these cars. But keeping one long term is a labor of love. And Im less concerned about the need to replace parts, even if it has some complex aspects to it... it’s the long term digital and control systems, reliant upon certain coding and designs, which will be obsolete, and then the car could well become a paperweight.
Hes, I’m talking about BMW, but I would suspect MB is much of the same.
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Half the power.
Not available outside Japan.
Cool car, but I'm not impressed. It's not a real competitor to the S600.
Agreed it’s a niche product. Have a look at the production process for this car however. For instance, 7 layers of paint, and only 2 techs certified to carry it out. Painstaking assembly to detail and perfection far beyond MB. Shows what a company like Toyota can do if they put their mind to it.
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