Meeting or Exceeding Minimum Formulation Requirements

[pscholte]

For those of you who have been around this board for awhile and those of you who have just done a lot of reasearch, which oils have you found to be formulated at the minimum level possible to meet SL/GF-3/A3B3 (not necessarily all inclusively) and which seem "fortified" to truly exceed specs. For Amsoil and Redline, if, in your opinion, they exceed minimum requirements even if they haven't been formally submitted to API or whatever, please include them. Please break out by grade if you think a company's XW30 is strong but their XXW40 is weak. I think making a list like this (if it doesn't open a Pandora's box), will help our members, especially new ones to find the dino or synthetic that gives them confidence really easily. Thanks.

 

[Mystic]

Well, if the VOAs and UOAs of Valvoline conventional oil are accurate, Valvoline apparently has relatively low additive content compared to many other conventional motor oils. Valvoline sells an oil supplement that maybe would bring the conventional oil up to the level of some other oils, but those oils meet the additive levels without the need for a supplement. Of course, I guess it could be argued that Valvoline is able to meet all necessary requirements without an extensive additive package (and maybe with a Group I base), and therefore Valvoline is doing remarkable stuff to be able to achieve SL levels.

 

[Titanium_Alloy]

I know Amsoil people will throw stones at me, but... I was thinking of using Amsoil for some time. Fortunately, I didn't use it. Why? Because API not only sets minimum requirements but limits excessive amount of additives in oils. Take a look at Amsoil spec sheet. What do you see? A3/B3 rated? No. Even though HTHS satisfies ACEA A3/B3 none of Amsoil XXW-30 oils have this rating (except series 3000). Even 10W-40 does not pass it. I don't even understand how they can market 10w-40 at all for gasoline cars. It doesn't have any friction modifiers. It's like putting motorcycle oil in your car engine. What can we see with Mobil at least 5w-30 and 10w-30 have A5/B5 approval which means that they are long drain capable oil. Amsoil doesn’t even claim A5/B5 capability. So in theory Mobil 1 should last as long as Amsoil if not even longer. I'm not sure if it’s also true in reality. Very high VI in many of Amsoil oils might indicate that they contain more VI-improvers compared to other oils. This can lead to a problem later with ring sticking. If you think that they protect very good as they say on paper read on. What about Mobil? It seems to satisfy many standards and often taken for industry benchmark. If an oil company wants to compare their oils they always compare them to Mobil. Mobil doesn't need to do so. I think that it indicates that their corporate moral standards are quite high, they don't throw sh*t at other companies. Also it might be an indication that their oils are really the best out there. This information is gathered from Mobil websites (See references below): " Red Line Oil talks about "four-ball wear," "load wear," "Falex wear" and "Timken psi load" for their synthetic oil. Are these valid tests? These tests are low-cost tests generally used to determine the performance properties of grease. They do not correlate with engine performance tests. For example, the use of an additive such as lead naphthenate would yield excellent results in these bench (or lab) tests, but would cause excessive oxidation of an oil in an engine and would cause a motor oil to fail the industry standard oxidation test known as the Sequence III test. None of the tests referenced are used by API in determining gasoline engine motor oil performance (SL is the current, most severe oil classification), nor are they used by engine manufacturers. The API approval requires the following tests: L-38 for bearing corrosion. Sequence IIIF for oxidation, deposits and wear. Sequence VG for sludge, wear and varnish. Sequence II for rust. This slate of tests can cost over $75,000 to run – considerably more than the simple bench tests mentioned. Red Line Oil claims to have 100 percent polyolester base stocks. Are these different or better than the base stocks used in Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™? We are very familiar with polyolesters. In fact, we manufacture them and use them in our aviation jet engine oils such as Mobil Jet Oil II® and Mobil Jet Oil 254® and in our refrigeration compressor lubricants, where the polyolesters are utilized for their compatibility with new HFC refrigerants. Polyolesters are indeed excellent at high-temperature oxidation stability and low volatility. However, our work on automobile engines and jet engine designs has shown that polyalphaolefins (PAOs) offer the best all-around performance for gasoline engines due to their: Being completely compatible with conventional oils and gasoline engine seals. Providing both low- and high-temperature performance. Providing a stable oil in the presence of water and moisture. Having anti-rust capabilities." And from Mobil's motorcycle oil website: " Can I use Mobil 1 15W-50 in my bike, just like I use in my car? Mobil 1 is Mobil 1, right? Mobil 1 for cars and Mobil 1 for motorcycles are markedly different. Every oil is a balance of benefits. Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic™ Formula for cars has been developed specifically to satisfy car manufacturers' needs for increased fuel economy and low emissions. That's why new cars come with friction-modified, low-phosphorus 5W-30 motor oil. The low viscosity and the friction modifiers help fuel economy. The low phosphorus levels help protect catalytic converters. So how is Mobil 1 for passenger cars different from Mobil 1 for motorcycles? ... It's a little hard to generalize about the difference between Mobil 1 passenger-car motor oils and Mobil 1 motorcycle oils. That's because not all viscosities of Mobil 1 passenger-car oils have the same levels of zinc and phosphorus, and there are even greater differences among the three Mobil 1 motorcycle oils. In general, Mobil 1 motorcycle oils have: Different base stock systems. Different additive packages. Different formulations to meet very specific engine requirements. Okay. Let's start with Mobil 1 MX4T. What does it offer that Mobil 1 for cars doesn't? Mobil 1 MX4T is designed for sport bikes. Most of these bikes have multi-cylinder/multi-valve engines and use a common sump, which means the engine oil lubricates the engine, transmission and wet clutch. So unlike Mobil 1 for cars, Mobil 1 MX4T has no friction modifiers, which could lead to clutch slippage. The motorcycle oil also has more phosphorus/zinc for enhanced wear protection at high engine speeds and high loads. Remember, most bikes don’t have catalytic converters, so higher levels of phosphorus are not a problem. In addition, Mobil 1 MX4T uses different dispersant/detergent technology for better high-temperature performance and engine cleanliness. Mobil 1 MX4T is also offered in a different viscosity grade than Mobil 1 for passenger cars. [Hmmm... High levels of zinc and phosphorus, no friction modifiers? Seems like Amsoil oil...] And do you really think that such industry giant as Mobil has less knowledge about motor oils than some basement blenders like Amsoil, Redline, and Royal Purple? By the way Formula Shell Synthetic motor oil 10w-30 has ACEA A3/B3 rating. If only I could find it here... References: www.mobil1.com/products/faq.jsp?catId=19 www.mobil1.com/motorcycle/

 

[Pablo]

Titanium - you are very, very confused. I will not throw stones at you, but if you write a long screed such as yours you should, at least, know what you are talking about. Also just huge semi relevant quotes from Mobil don't further your discussion. At least, please take the the time to learn about friction modifiers (FM's) and anti-wear (AW) compounds.

 

[davidc]

Titanium - I have been to Europe and looked at teh quality of the oils on the shelf at the stores (similar to a Sam's / Costco). In general, there "great high quality oils" meet SF/ CF specs and sell for 5-7 USD per liter for mineral oil. Synthetics of the same API quality go for 12 USD per liter. How are these better than what we have here in the US which meet SL / CH-4 and CI-4 standards and retail for 1.50 USD per liter for mineral and 4-5 USD per liter for Synthetic? My recommendation, learn lots more in school and realize that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the street.

 

[MNgopher]

I think if I read the post correctly, we are trying to classify oils as just meeting, exceeding, and greatly exceeding minimum requirements for various classifications based on VOA and UOA only. My thought is that without actually running the bench tests used to evaluate the oils as meeting the different classifications, that would be very very difficult. Say one oil appears to have a lower level of additives than others, yet it seems to show better in UOA's. Does that mean its a bare bones oil? Tough to say since there are many ways to skin a cat in oil formulation! Yes, we can get a general feel for how one oil performs against another based on what we've seen, but there are so many variables at work here, where the tests are pretty cut and dry.

 

[pscholte]

quote:

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Originally posted by Asmodeus: david: Is it possible that such a descrepency in prices could be attributed to a difference in oil taxes with respects to US vs Rest of the World? I'm not sure though, but countries like Canada and the US have their own source of crude oil, whereas most european countries are not as fortunate. Wouldn't this also aid in keeping the prices here lower? Why do you guys think?

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Asmodeus, Having lived in Europe, my experience is that most of the price differential BTW European oils and US oils is due to taxation, not to the fact that European oils have more costly components in their formulation. There may be some of that, but it is mostly due to taxes.

 

[buster]

It anoys me to know end how people rip M1 apart but make more excuses for European oils that A. they never used themselves and B. Redline oil that has yet to show a great UOA. [ July 30, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Patman]

A3 means an oil has an HTHS of 3.5 or higher, so M1's 30wts just don't cut the mustard. I've posted the Redline UOA which is easily one of the best UOAs on here, in a Toyota sludge monster no less, and I've posted that UOA many times so I'm not going to do it again. Like Terry says, you need a few intervals with Redline for it to show it's best numbers, which is why we haven't seen many stellar UOAs yet. If Terry is impressed with Redline enough to recommend it to many of his customers (especially those with LS1s) then that's good enough for me.

 

[buster]

quote:

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A3 means an oil has an HTHS of 3.5 or higher, so M1's 30wts just don't cut the mustard. I've posted the Redline UOA which is easily one of the best UOAs on here, in a Toyota sludge monster no less

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So one report convinced you? What is the A5 spec then? Patman, please don't take offense to this, but you have to be objective about all of this. We have one of the best UOA's I think of a Volvo turbo using M1. Terry said flat out it is the best he has seen in this engine. You can't ignore that. Also, you seem to base everthing on the LS1 engine? What about this report Patman? You were no where to be found on this one? http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000434#000000 [ July 30, 2003, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Patman]

That is a very good report, no doubt about it, but to be a stellar report, it would have to show some zeros and ones in the wear columns to truly take top dog honors. That is what that Redline UOA looked like (with 5k on the oil, and as mentioned, in the Toyota sludge monster motor too) Sure it's just one UOA, but when you keep in mind how badly that Toyota engine chews up the oil, it makes it even more impressive. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Heck, I can't even afford Redline anyways, so it's not like I'll ever be able to continuously use it in any of my cars. I still stand by my belief that Mobil 1 is not as good as it could be. If it were, why are so many people on here adding #132 in order to help thicken it up?

 

[Patman]

OK, I lied, I'm gonna post that UOA on Redline once again. Tell me this isn't the most impressive UOA you've ever seen?

quote:

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Dyson Analysis Oil Brand/Weight : Redline 5w-30 Type Equipment : Toyota Sienna Miles/Hours on oil : 4812 Total Miles/Hours : 78905 Results ppm/% Comments (blank=normal) Wear Copper 0 Iron 0 Chromium 1 Lead 0 Aluminum 2 Silicon 12 Tin 2 Additives Molybdenum 542 Sodium 11 Magnesium 25 Zinc 1170 Potassium 14 Phosphorus 1070 Calcium 2310 Physical Properties Water negative Fuel negative scale negative,trace,positive Antifreeze negative Soot 40 some solids present, sludge precursors being cleaned Oxidation 94 scale 0-199 47% cleaning going on. Nitration 87 scale 0-199 43.5% elevated by Redline signature Sulfur 71 some fuel sulfur, mostly Redline adds TBN 7 some depletion as cleaning takes place [email protected] C 11.8 30W

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[buster]

quote:

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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Heck, I can't even afford Redline anyways, so it's not like I'll ever be able to continuously use it in any of my cars. I still stand by my belief that Mobil 1 is not as good as it could be. If it were, why are so many people on here adding #132 in order to help thicken it up?

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Patman, I think we agree more then we disagree. I'm just one that needs to see more to really say what is better or best. You know more about this stuff then I do. I'm just going by what I've seen. To be perfectly I hope Redline and Amsoil do prove to be better because I really would like to know!! Plus, I want to use the best oil I can get for my next car, C5. So for me 3MP's study is important. BTW, that report is ridiculously good. And I agree that M1 could be much better but it's a OTC so we know how that goes. [ July 30, 2003, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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Having lived in Europe, my experience is that most of the price differential BTW European oils and US oils is due to taxation, not to the fact that European oils have more costly components in their formulation. There may be some of that, but it is mostly due to taxes.

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pscholte, The mineral oil tax for unleaded gasoline is now about 65 cents per liter in Germany. Not sure about other European countries, but I think it's similar. This also explains why a German lubricant manufacturer (Pentosin) can sell their oil for much less in the US than in Germany. What's the tax on gas in the US?

 

[Pablo]

Patman - Not a bad report for a "basement blender". Further comments about Ti Alloy's post and M1's hype: There is no proven evidence that 1000 ppm is a magic number for protecting the catalytic converter. It's bureaucratic number, not scientific. For M1 to promote low P as a "feature" is, well, er...hype! Lastly: "Take a look at Amsoil spec sheet. What do you see? A3/B3 rated? No. Even though HTHS satisfies ACEA A3/B3 none of Amsoil XXW-30 oils have this rating (except series 3000)." I will say this - Amsoil really doesn't give a fruit about European specs. I don't think they are pushing for that market. That said, you are wrong, check the ATM 10W-30. "Even 10W-40 does not pass it. I don't even understand how they can market 10w-40 at all for gasoline cars. It doesn't have any friction modifiers. It's like putting motorcycle oil in your car engine." How can you write such a thing? Did the AMO fail European testing? Friction Modifiers? Do you mean anti-wear agents? Of course it does. I think you mean Mo. Amsoil doesn't have Mo - does this mean it's an inferior oil? I don't think used oil analysis or even SL-GF testing has proven this. Please tell me the difference between a 4 stroke MC oil and an automobile oil. You've been spending far too much time at Mobil's site. "What can we see with Mobil at least 5w-30 and 10w-30 have A5/B5 approval which means that they are long drain capable oil. Amsoil doesn’t even claim A5/B5 capability. So in theory Mobil 1 should last as long as Amsoil if not even longer. I'm not sure if it’s also true in reality." Please don't confuse specificationship with real world performance. At least you concede that it may not be true in the real world. "Very high VI in many of Amsoil oils might indicate that they contain more VI-improvers compared to other oils. This can lead to a problem later with ring sticking. If you think that they protect very good as they say on paper read on." I think we have proven that the viscosity index can only be modified so much with vi improvers. For you to insinuate: a) that Amsoil achieves this by additives rather than base oil and that Amsoil formulations may cause ring sticking, better be backed with some serious facts. So I read on, and I saw a bunch of Mobil1 hype. The facts are this: While Amsoil does make some boastful claims about 25K and 35K or 12 months max in a couple applications (most are less but most people don't pick up on this).

 

[Dr. T]

Si=12; Fe, Cu, Pb = 0??? Something fishy here?

 

[Asmodeus]

quote:

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Originally posted by pscholte: Asmodeus, Having lived in Europe, my experience is that most of the price differential BTW European oils and US oils is due to taxation, not to the fact that European oils have more costly components in their formulation. There may be some of that, but it is mostly due to taxes.

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Pscholte, So that explains how you impeccably express yourself in french.

 

[JohnBrowning]

buster you are not entirely correct on a couple of points. One I do not think that people rip on M1. It is the most used synthetic oil on tis site. I think as an industry giant people expect more from them. Second the two best UOA posted on this site have been from vechiles running Redline! I use mostly M1 and Amsoil products. I use them due to convience and cost. One thing to keep in mind is that Terry from what I have gathered has a low opion of M1. He has a high opion of Redline! He has alot more knoldge on oil related subjects then I do and he has to have good reason for his expert opion! [ July 30, 2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]

 

[pscholte]

quote:

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Originally posted by moribundman:

quote:

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Having lived in Europe, my experience is that most of the price differential BTW European oils and US oils is due to taxation, not to the fact that European oils have more costly components in their formulation. There may be some of that, but it is mostly due to taxes.

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pscholte, The mineral oil tax for unleaded gasoline is now about 65 cents per liter in Germany. Not sure about other European countries, but I think it's similar. This also explains why a German lubricant manufacturer (Pentosin) can sell their oil for much less in the US than in Germany. What's the tax on gas in the US?

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Current Federal Gasoline Tax is 18.4 cents/gallon.

 

[pscholte]

quote:

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Originally posted by Asmodeus:

quote:

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Originally posted by pscholte: Asmodeus, Having lived in Europe, my experience is that most of the price differential BTW European oils and US oils is due to taxation, not to the fact that European oils have more costly components in their formulation. There may be some of that, but it is mostly due to taxes.

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Pscholte, So that explains how you impeccably express yourself in french.

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Asmodeus, I lived in Germany (and learned conversational German) so actually what happened is I subjugated the French I learned as a French minor in college to the furthest recesses of my mind (you know kind of like partially overwriting a file on your hard drive) Si, je suis devenu un faux et dois utiliser le logiciel de traduction pour vous parler la belle langue. J'avoir honte!! (Et penser, j'ai utilisé pour pouvoir parler la langue bien!! J'espère que vous me pardonnerez.)