MB 229.51: Not good for gasoline engines?

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I've seen a few snippets here and there indicating that the 229.51 spec is for diesels with particulate filters, and that 229.51 oils should not be used in most gasoline engines. Anyone know what's up with this?
 
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I believe this comment was strictly in relation to gasoline quality issues outside of Europe. Similarly to these MB specs, BMW advises against the use of BMW LL-04 spec'd oil in gasoline engines outside of Europe, citing questionable gasoline quality. Whether this argument really holds water, I have no idea. I, too, would like to hear what are the real reasons, if any.
 
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 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I've seen a few snippets here and there indicating that the 229.51 spec is for diesels with particulate filters, and that 229.51 oils should not be used in most gasoline engines. Anyone know what's up with this?
 Quote:
MB sheet 229.51 approved oils; low ash long life Mercedes pioneered this new spec for passenger cars with diesel engines with exhaust particulate filters, and gasoline engines, and longer service life than the 229.31 oils. The spec was introduced in 2005. Change intervals increased to 20,000 kilometers. Based on ACEA A3 B4 and C3. As of December 2008 more than 100 oils meet this spec...
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html Latest list: 229.51 Low SPAsh multigrade service engine oils (Specification 229.51) So in my view this is just another angle on high SAPS for flat tappets, with a Euro accent. Seriously, there is some truth that you wouldn't want a low SAPS oil in your 502 RAT motor with solid lifters. This would give some validity to d00df00d's statement. But in general, these oils will do fine in most modern engines.
 

JHZR2

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the 229.xx series is a diesel and gas engine-based spec. I believe it originated with an OM 617 and a M 117 as the diesel and gas engine test rigs. The 228.xx spec is a HD Diesel-related spec, but when I reviewed them, they were all very close/similar.
 

d00df00d

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 Originally Posted By: JHZR2
the 229.xx series is a diesel and gas engine-based spec.
I've heard the same thing, and I've also heard similar about BMW LL-04. But if they are gas/diesel specs, why would the manufacturers recommend against them for gas engines? It doesn't make sense to me. Could it be a matter of catalyst compatibility? Pablo, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that might have been your feeling as well.
 
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I seem to remember a service bulletin from Mercedes regarding 229.31 and 229.51 spec oils are not recomended for ethanol blended gasoline... Maybe someone with a better memory can chime in.
 
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 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Could it be a matter of catalyst compatibility? Pablo, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that might have been your feeling as well.
These low SAPs oils should be very friendly to catalysts. My point was along the same lines as SM oils in flat tappet engines.
 
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i'm having trouble finding the link...MB originally approved 229.51 in all vehicles (and still do in europe), but pulled back on the recommendation in the US (and perhaps elsewhere) on gasoline vehicles due to the ethanol content in our gas (as mentioned above). Not sure if BMW ever officially approved LL04 oils for gasoline engines in the US, but they still stick with LL01 for the gassers. I was originally planning on running the ESP 5w40 FM in my '97 e320, but I imagine MB has to have a pretty good reason to cancel a recommendation to use an oil in such a large-scale application. Our diesel MB's love the stuff
 
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 Originally Posted By: opposite_locker
Not sure if BMW ever officially approved LL04 oils for gasoline engines in the US,
They did not. This is from the latest BMW TIS publication. Check note 2) at the bottom of the table...
 

d00df00d

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According to the thread posted above, the TBN is very low. That may be the only issue. Do ethanol fuels generate more acidic by-products?
 
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 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
According to the thread posted above, the TBN is very low. That may be the only issue.
unless it has good retention,i read that too the 5w30ESP only 5.1 TBN. should do 8-9k tho.
 

JAG

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My firewall is blocking Quattro Pete's link so it may already contain what I'm going to post. In this thread, Link , the following is posted:
 Quote:
[snip] As a precautionary measure and in an effort to better protect Mercedes-Benz engines from the potential long term effects of the increased use of ethanol., DCAG has decided to differentiate the engine oils that are used for Gasoline and Diesel engines. As such, Mercedes-Benz 229.5 0W40 engine oil must be used for all gasoline engines including AMG. Mercedes-Benz recommends the use of Mobil 1 0W40 for all gasoline engines including AMG, with the exception of the SLR. 0W40 engine oil is more effective in resisting the possible corrosive effects of acidic moisture that can be caused by the increased use of ethanol. The SLR requires specification 229.3, Mobil 1 5W50 oil. To maintain the integrity of the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF), specification 229.51 must be used for Diesel engines.
I don't think ethanol produces more acidic by-products. I think more water content builds up in the oil from it. Water in oil enables acids to dissolve better in it. Acids corrode metals, obviously. Mobil 1 Formula M 5W-40 is now made and it meets MB 229.5. I've read online that this is what's used from bulk tanks at MB dealerships for MB gassers, except the SLR. The same sources said this started after the above quote was sent out.
 

d00df00d

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 Originally Posted By: JAG
My firewall is blocking Quattro Pete's link so it may already contain what I'm going to post. In this thread, Link , the following is posted:
 Quote:
[snip] As a precautionary measure and in an effort to better protect Mercedes-Benz engines from the potential long term effects of the increased use of ethanol., DCAG has decided to differentiate the engine oils that are used for Gasoline and Diesel engines. As such, Mercedes-Benz 229.5 0W40 engine oil must be used for all gasoline engines including AMG. Mercedes-Benz recommends the use of Mobil 1 0W40 for all gasoline engines including AMG, with the exception of the SLR. 0W40 engine oil is more effective in resisting the possible corrosive effects of acidic moisture that can be caused by the increased use of ethanol. The SLR requires specification 229.3, Mobil 1 5W50 oil. To maintain the integrity of the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF), specification 229.51 must be used for Diesel engines.
Excellent. Thanks!
 Originally Posted By: JAG
I don't think ethanol produces more acidic by-products. I think more water content builds up in the oil from it. Water in oil enables acids to dissolve better in it. Acids corrode metals, obviously.
That makes sense, and jives with the wording of the above statement from MB.
 Originally Posted By: JAG
Mobil 1 Formula M 5W-40 is now made and it meets MB 229.5. I've read online that this is what's used from bulk tanks at MB dealerships for MB gassers, except the SLR. The same sources said this started after the above quote was sent out.
Everything I'm reading indicates that ESP Formula M 5w-40 is a 229.51 oil. Where did you see 229.5?
 

JAG

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 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
 Originally Posted By: JAG
Mobil 1 Formula M 5W-40 is now made and it meets MB 229.5. I've read online that this is what's used from bulk tanks at MB dealerships for MB gassers, except the SLR. The same sources said this started after the above quote was sent out.
Everything I'm reading indicates that ESP Formula M 5w-40 is a 229.51 oil. Where did you see 229.5?
A subtle change in oil name exists between the two different oils. I was talking about Mobil 1 Formula M 5W-40. There is no "ESP" in that oil's name. Here is its PDS: http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/glxxenpvlmomobil1_formula_m_5w-40.pdf
 

d00df00d

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Ahh, okay. Thanks again. Specs are virtually identical between that and the ESP counterpart. The numbers that stand out to me are the sulphated ash numbers: 0.9% for the non-ESP vs. 0.63% for the ESP...
 
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