MB 229.5 and 2 year oci's

[TrevorS]

Am I right in understanding that in Europe, some vehicles that are spec'd for MB229.5 oil also have official oci's of up to 2 years?

Also, is the reason the same vehicles in the US are limited to 1 year oci's due to higher sulphur gas?

 

[Coprolite]

As a blanket statement:
Sulfur content and different engine tunes designed to meet US/California emissions impact OCI time/length.

The engine tune would be variable base upon individual engine designs.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Am I right in understanding that in Europe, some vehicles that are spec'd for MB229.5 oil also have official oci's of up to 2 years?

Also, is the reason the same vehicles in the US are limited to 1 year oci's due to higher sulphur gas?

It is combination of 2yrs or 30,000km for SOME cars. Not all have that schedule.
In the US: Sulphur content, ethanol, different tune of engine due to NoX gases etc.

 

[JHZR2]

Sulfur content in gasoline (higher than diesel these days) will deplete TBN. Doesnt mean that a lube is unsuitable for two year OCIs. I have multiple cars that I run two year OCIs on (both diesel and gas) without issue.

My 2004 saab was specified for two year OCIs when using the correct syn oil. Ive run UOAs and found it to be fully suitable.

With UOA and a known good engine design, two year OCIs are achievable. If doing a lot of short trips, Id be more hesitant.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Sulfur content in gasoline (higher than diesel these days) will deplete TBN. Doesnt mean that a lube is unsuitable for two year OCIs. I have multiple cars that I run two year OCIs on (both diesel and gas) without issue.

My 2004 saab was specified for two year OCIs when using the correct syn oil. Ive run UOAs and found it to be fully suitable.

With UOA and a known good engine design, two year OCIs are achievable. If doing a lot of short trips, Id be more hesitant.


As far as I know 2004 SAAB is not Direct Injection. That is where problems are!
In indirect injection engines this is not an issue, in engines with direct injection (which is trend in Europe, japan and US manufacturers are starting to catch up) this is a big deal.
Problem is that in cars with direct injection some fuel, especially during start ups and heavy city driving, ends up in oil. TBN gets deplated etc.
Thank elected officials for this. You know: less govt. govt should not be in your lives etc. Truth is: oil industry does not want to see changes like in EU, where fuel is extremely clean. So what they do: they lobby politicians to leave thing the way they been forever. Then, figure out how to subsidy farmers. Well, request 10% ethanol addition to the gas, tell sheeps (that is: people) that it is good for environment, it will cut imports of oil etc. Reality: More energy is used to make ethanol and you get lower MPG. so in the end you use anyway more gas due to less energy value.
But who cares, government regulation is always bad

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I might guess that direct injection fuel dilution issues ( AFTER a proper wear-in) is due to high static and dynamic compression and low tension rings without the benefit of fuel surface tension and hydrodyn sealing properties during the ring stack swipe on the up (comp) stroke - I have not yet envisioned another scenario.
Anyone have link to a white paper on the subject - or is the industry in denial or still on the learning curve?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I might guess that direct injection fuel dilution issues ( AFTER a proper wear-in) is due to high static and dynamic compression and low tension rings without the benefit of fuel surface tension and hydrodyn sealing properties during the ring stack swipe on the up (comp) stroke - I have not yet envisioned another scenario.
Anyone have link to a white paper on the subject - or is the industry in denial or still on the learning curve?

I think it is combination of things. We do not get stratified injection like in EU, due to NoX. NoX is off course also political issue, lobbied by big three in 90's to protect American car industry from faster developing technology in EU and Japan. Well we all know how that ended up.
Anyway, I do not think things are going to change for better here anytime soon when it comes to this issue. Toyota is developing new direct injection so we will see. I think it is still learning curve for the auto industry. For example, VW had huge issues with its 1.2 and 1.4 TSI engines. They solved problems on 1.4TSI but 1.2TSI is still a problem. So this downsizing trend will continue and we will see some problems going away, but some new ones coming out.

 

[bigjl]

I believe the Vauxhall/Opel Vectra 2.2 Direct Injected petrol engine was on a 2 yr or 20k miles OCI. Actually it might have been 30k miles. Will double check.

 

[bigjl]

Double checked and it was 20k miles or 30k kms.

Oils used must be C3 low saps though.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Sulfur content in gasoline (higher than diesel these days) will deplete TBN. Doesnt mean that a lube is unsuitable for two year OCIs. I have multiple cars that I run two year OCIs on (both diesel and gas) without issue.

My 2004 saab was specified for two year OCIs when using the correct syn oil. Ive run UOAs and found it to be fully suitable.

With UOA and a known good engine design, two year OCIs are achievable. If doing a lot of short trips, Id be more hesitant.


As far as I know 2004 SAAB is not Direct Injection. That is where problems are!
In indirect injection engines this is not an issue, in engines with direct injection (which is trend in Europe, japan and US manufacturers are starting to catch up) this is a big deal.
Problem is that in cars with direct injection some fuel, especially during start ups and heavy city driving, ends up in oil. TBN gets deplated etc.
:


That's not what OP asked though. And fuel dilution may or may not be an issue wrt lube oil time in service.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: bigjl
I believe the Vauxhall/Opel Vectra 2.2 Direct Injected petrol engine was on a 2 yr or 20k miles OCI. Actually it might have been 30k miles. Will double check.

Yeah, but that is EU gas! No ethanol and much less sulphur!

 

[bar1]

EU gasoline can and does contain ethanol (E5 normal) mainly during summer months.
EU member states are required to incorporate 10% biofuels (energy basis) in all transport fuel by 2020.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: bar1
EU gasoline can and does contain ethanol (E5 normal) mainly during summer months.
EU member states are required to incorporate 10% biofuels (energy basis) in all transport fuel by 2020.

That is by 2020! We do not know how that will affect engines. We do now how ethanol in the US degrades oil, as well as sulphur which is main culprit behind oil degradation. In the US you have 10% of ethanol, i the EU it is up to 5%, and not everywhere.

 

[bar1]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: bar1
EU gasoline can and does contain ethanol (E5 normal) mainly during summer months.
EU member states are required to incorporate 10% biofuels (energy basis) in all transport fuel by 2020.

That is by 2020! We do not know how that will affect engines. We do now how ethanol in the US degrades oil, as well as sulphur which is main culprit behind oil degradation. In the US you have 10% of ethanol, i the EU it is up to 5%, and not everywhere.


The blanket statement "no ethanol in EU gas" is not correct and 2020 is only 6 years from now. Many governments of Europe will make sure they pass this requirement before 2020.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: bar1
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: bar1
EU gasoline can and does contain ethanol (E5 normal) mainly during summer months.
EU member states are required to incorporate 10% biofuels (energy basis) in all transport fuel by 2020.

That is by 2020! We do not know how that will affect engines. We do now how ethanol in the US degrades oil, as well as sulphur which is main culprit behind oil degradation. In the US you have 10% of ethanol, i the EU it is up to 5%, and not everywhere.


The blanket statement "no ethanol in EU gas" is not correct and 2020 is only 6 years from now. Many governments of Europe will make sure they pass this requirement before 2020.


OK, and the point is? The main culprit behind oil degradation is sulphur anyway. Also, on majority of EU market yous till do not have ethanol. On top of that, it is 5% not 10%.
Also, EU will go ahead and probably try to mitigate problems that the US experience had. So, that is why it is 5% not 10%, and there are probably many more requirements in order not to have similar problems like in the US.
Bottom line, ethanol is not such a big issue as sulphur is.

 

[bar1]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: bar1
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: bar1
EU gasoline can and does contain ethanol (E5 normal) mainly during summer months.
EU member states are required to incorporate 10% biofuels (energy basis) in all transport fuel by 2020.

That is by 2020! We do not know how that will affect engines. We do now how ethanol in the US degrades oil, as well as sulphur which is main culprit behind oil degradation. In the US you have 10% of ethanol, i the EU it is up to 5%, and not everywhere.


The blanket statement "no ethanol in EU gas" is not correct and 2020 is only 6 years from now. Many governments of Europe will make sure they pass this requirement before 2020.


OK, and the point is? The main culprit behind oil degradation is sulphur anyway. Also, on majority of EU market yous till do not have ethanol. On top of that, it is 5% not 10%.
Also, EU will go ahead and probably try to mitigate problems that the US experience had. So, that is why it is 5% not 10%, and there are probably many more requirements in order not to have similar problems like in the US.
Bottom line, ethanol is not such a big issue as sulphur is.


Point is to make sure information on this site is correct. A post in this thread stated no ethanol in EU gas and that is clearly wrong.

I didn't mention anything abt. sulphur.
Yes sulphur content is low in European gasoline compared to US gasoline, and that may be the reason behind longer OCI recommended here...

 

[TrevorS]

US ethanol is "up to 10%" and averages 7.x% I believe.

As stated elsewhere, CA has 5.x% average requirement and sulphur levels in gas the same as EU. So can CA euro cars have similar oci's to their European twins?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
US ethanol is "up to 10%" and averages 7.x% I believe.

As stated elsewhere, CA has 5.x% average requirement and sulphur levels in gas the same as EU. So can CA euro cars have similar oci's to their European twins?

Not sure. But when I lived in CA I could not smell gas at all in oil. As soon as I moved in CO, gas smell returned.

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: bigjl
I believe the Vauxhall/Opel Vectra 2.2 Direct Injected petrol engine was on a 2 yr or 20k miles OCI. Actually it might have been 30k miles. Will double check.

Yeah, but that is EU gas! No ethanol and much less sulphur!


You did read the OP didn't you?

I was giving some info relating to 2 yr OCI in Europe. Which is relevant to the thread.

 

[bigjl]

Some European countries have different fuel quality to others. European countries aren't always in the EU so fuels can be poorer quality.

Some countries that have only been in the EU for a short time also have varying fuel quality. I have been told that fuel quality in Greece and Spain is poorer than the UK or Germany for example.

If i have some spare time over the next few days i might look at some oil manufacturer oil recommendation sites to see if there is any variance.