Mazda 0w20 W/Moly Oil, 2013 I4 Accord, 6651 Miles

[MikeySoft]

Mazda 0w20 W/Moly Oil (aka MGMO), 2013 I4 Accord, 6651 Miles, ~13% OLM My driving is harder on the oil then many others as showed by getting less miles when the OLM is at 15% then many others with the same engine and OLM %. You can verify this by searching for other UOAs for the 2013/14 Accord. Hopefully they also include the OLM remaining life percentage. The KV40 was done at CATERHAM request.

Code:

+ -------------+---------+---------+---------------
Oil:           Factory   MGMO 	   MGMO VOA
Intellect OLM: 15%       ~13%
Unit Miles:    5853      12504
Oil Miles:     5853      6651 
Oil Months:    8.25      10
Date:          06/17/13  04/15/14  Oct 2012      

Aluminum(Al):  7         18       
Chromium(Cr):  1         1
Iron(Fe):      57        49 
Copper(Cu):    20        8
Lead(Pb):      1         0
Tin(Sn):       0         3
Moly(Mo):      739       625       664
Nickel(Ni):    1         0
Manganese      13        13
Silver(Ag):    0         0
Titanium(Ti):  0         0
Potassium(K):  13        6
Boron(B):      144       132       266
Silicon(Si):   141       40        6
Sodium(Na):    14        8         4
Calcium:(Ca)   1992      2051      2318
Magnesium(Mg): 15        19        18
Phosphorus(P): 736       689       732
Zinc(Zn)       876       784       842
Barium(Ba):    4         1         0

SUS Vis @210F: 49.7      49.9      53.6
cSt Vis @100C: 7.18      7.25      8.37
cSt Vis @40C:  -         33.601    35.852
VI             -         188       221
Flashpoint F:  370       405       430
Fuel %:        0.8       <0.5      -
Antifreeze:    0.0       0.0       -
Water:         0.0       0.0       0
Insolubles %   0.2       0.3       0  
TBN:           1.5       1.5       -

Mazda 0W-20 with Moly VOA: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...dem#Post2781625 I used 3 different labs for the factory oil UOA. One lab had an error in fuel. For additional info and comments, see: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb..._Ac#Post3053153 Several years of UOAs for my 2003 Accord I4 using 5w20 and 0w20 oils are at: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb..._Hon#Post878549 All comments are welcome.

 

[ChiTDI]

The Silicon jumps out at me. Although this a relatively new engine, maybe that explains.

 

[MikeySoft]

Thanks for the feedback. The silicon when down from 141 in the factory oil to 40 in this UOA. I’m hoping the 40 is because it is still a new engine like you said. Al, Iron, Copper are also high. I hope this is also because of it being a newer engine.

 

[bigt61]

Looks good, everything trending lower except Al. It was a brutal winter in Boston so I'm guessing a bunch of idle time.

 

[MikeySoft]

Originally Posted By: bigt61

Looks good, everything trending lower except Al. It was a brutal winter in Boston so I'm guessing a bunch of idle time.

My typical driving is several short (<2 miles) drives and two 25 miles drive each week. According to the OLM, the first winter was harder then the second because it hit 15% with less miles. I did a LOT of very shout drives (<1 mile) the first winter. I had 3 different labs do the first UOAs of the factory oil. Blackstone had 7 for AL while the other 2 had 20. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb..._Ac#Post3053153 I sent Blackstone an email if they could have an error for that UAO. They have not replied yet.

 

[CATERHAM]

Thanks for the report. Yes your <2 mile commute in the dead of winter I'm sure didn't do you any favours. Next winter with the same driving pattern I'd suggest shortening the OCI to 5K max. Have you refilled with the same oil (MGMO 0W-20)? I suspect the next UOA over the summer months will reflect improved results from your new engine.

 

[k24a4]

Thanks for posting, Mike. Referencing the UOA's for the '03 Accord Al, Cu, and Fe trended down significantly for the second oil change (14.5k-21.5k) and held there for the remainder of your testing. Hopefully that is also the case here, and the current oil will show lower metals. IIRC your driving pattern was different back then as well. Metals do seem rather high for a Honda engine though, and quite higher than the old k24 motor. Engine will probably only last 500k or so. Viscosity seemed to hold well considering the extreme short trips and DI engine.

 

[MikeySoft]

Yes, I refilled with the same MGMO w/Moly 0w20 oil. Do you have a comment about the VI?

 

[MikeySoft]

Oh, I forgot to add, the intelligent OLM was 15% and the tbn was both 1.5 for the first uoa of the factory oil and this oci with the mgmo. Doesn't that mean the oci is correct? The mgmo had more miles for the same olm because I had more holiday trips where I drove more highway miles than the first oci.

 

[MikeySoft]

Originally Posted By: k24a4

Thanks for posting, Mike. Referencing the UOA's for the '03 Accord Al, Cu, and Fe trended down significantly for the second oil change (14.5k-21.5k) and held there for the remainder of your testing. Hopefully that is also the case here, and the current oil will show lower metals. IIRC your driving pattern was different back then as well. Metals do seem rather high for a Honda engine though, and quite higher than the old k24 motor. Engine will probably only last 500k or so. Viscosity seemed to hold well considering the extreme short trips and DI engine.

LOL. Yes, back then on the 2003 Accord I was putting over 2140 mostly highway miles a month for the first 2 years, it then went down to about 820 miles a month with less highway. Now I’m putting about 665 mile a month. My 03 was running great when I got rid of it with over 143,000 miles. But it was getting dated after 10 years.

 

[MikeySoft]

The UBBCode makes it hard to see the column headings so I reposted just the vis stuff here.

Code:

+ -------------+---------+---------+---------------
Oil:           Factory   MGMO 	   MGMO VOA
Intellect OLM: 15%       ~13%
Unit Miles:    5853      12504
Oil Miles:     5853      6651 
Oil Months:    8.25      10
Date:          06/17/13  04/15/14  

SUS Vis @210F: 49.7      49.9      53.6
cSt Vis @100C: 7.18      7.25      8.37
cSt Vis @40C:  -         33.601    35.852
VI             -         188       221
Flashpoint F:  370       405       430

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: MikeySoft

Yes, I refilled with the same MGMO w/Moly 0w20 oil. Do you have a comment about the VI?

Yes the VI drop to 188 is a little disappointing but it's still higher than the virgin VIs of most 0W-20s. We also don't know if it's main competitor, TGMO fairs any better. All we do know is that the latest TGMO version appears quite shear stable in most applications. Of course this is just one UOA under harsh winter conditions. I think the next UOA if it is taken no later than December with the likelihood of less fuel dilution will be more telling.

 

[Dominic]

It looks right on spec, the OLM seems to do a good job in your car. Thanks for posting a short-commute hard wear UOA! I'm running the MGMO in my Mazda too, it seems great.

 

[MikeySoft]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Originally Posted By: MikeySoft

Yes, I refilled with the same MGMO w/Moly 0w20 oil. Do you have a comment about the VI?

Yes the VI drop to 188 is a little disappointing but it's still higher than the virgin VIs of most 0W-20s. We also don't know if it's main competitor, TGMO fairs any better. All we do know is that the latest TGMO version appears quite shear stable in most applications. Of course this is just one UOA under harsh winter conditions. I think the next UOA if it is taken no later than December with the likelihood of less fuel dilution will be more telling.

But the fuel dilution was less then 0.5% ? I'm not sure how useful VI is because most likely viscosity is nonlinear with temperature but only uses 2 points to compute, the lowest one is 40C. I would thing viscosity at 0C and lower would be more important.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: MikeySoft

But the fuel dilution was less then 0.5% ? I'm not sure how useful VI is because most likely viscosity is nonlinear with temperature but only uses 2 points to compute, the lowest one is 40C. I would thing viscosity at 0C and lower would be more important.

You've got it...VI, in and of itself is absolutely meaningless in a UOA, particularly the "drop in VI" during an OCI. Go to http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html and put the two oil results, and see what it means What's important is a 13+% viscosity drop...which is way more than 0.5% fuel should be able to accomplish...

 

[MikeySoft]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Originally Posted By: MikeySoft

But the fuel dilution was less then 0.5% ? I'm not sure how useful VI is because most likely viscosity is nonlinear with temperature but only uses 2 points to compute, the lowest one is 40C. I would thing viscosity at 0C and lower would be more important.

You've got it...VI, in and of itself is absolutely meaningless in a UOA, particularly the "drop in VI" during an OCI. Go to http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html and put the two oil results, and see what it means What's important is a 13+% viscosity drop...which is way more than 0.5% fuel should be able to accomplish...

It still within 6.0-9.7 the lab said it should be. So is this a big concern? PS I put in the numbers for the VOA and UOA and the Viscosity Curves are about the same. I'm not sure what that means?

 

[Shannow]

It's still "in grade", but it has sheared...a lot. The grade is a pretty wide band, as the lab has correctly indicated, but the same amount of shear in a "light 30" would have the usual pundits crowing that it sheared out of grade. See http://paservice.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/J300_201304.pdf table 1, for the J300 viscosity classifications. The "20" has been moved up a tad, 6.9 to 9.3, rather than the older 5.6 to 9.3, to allow the xW-16s in...which you will see also have an overlap into the 20s. Where you (may be) at risk, is that apparently the OEM 20s are formulated at the low end of the HTHS spectrum, right at 2.6, so nearly any shear takes them "out of grade" into the 16 range. I'm not a fan of oils that change from what you planned when you installed it to something different...

Originally Posted By: MikeySoft

PS I put in the numbers for the VOA and UOA and the Viscosity Curves are about the same. I'm not sure what that means?

Yep, they are so about the same at the cold end that they make no difference, thus my statement about VI "loss" being meaningless in an OCI. However, at the pointy end, to the right of the curve, at 100C, the viscosity is down 13%

 

[MikeySoft]

I need some time to understand the pdf at your last link but the 0C end also seem to change about 7.4%.

 

[Shannow]

Yes, it did, however viscosity is what keeps your engine parts from contacting, so as the oil gets hotter and thinner, it reduces the gap between parts. The hot, thin end is where the oil film starts to thin to the point that the boundary lubricants come in to play, 13% more viscosity at that point, when the viscosity is in single digits, can (not will) make a difference. At 40C, your oil is about 4 times thicker than at 100C, so has no problem providing the separation...at zero celsius, the used oil was thicker, but parts are separated more...however, the difference in pumpability is nonsensical, when you consider say a 15W-40 (Delo400 is 125 at 40C and 15.1 at 100C) - plug that into the curve, and see how little difference the loss in VI from your OCI is compared to other oils which have a low to no engine failure rate in service.

 

[MikeySoft]

Originally Posted By: MikeySoft

Originally Posted By: bigt61

Looks good, everything trending lower except Al. It was a brutal winter in Boston so I'm guessing a bunch of idle time.

My typical driving is several short (<2 miles) drives and two 25 miles drive each week. According to the OLM, the first winter was harder then the second because it hit 15% with less miles. I did a LOT of very shout drives (<1 mile) the first winter. I had 3 different labs do the first UOAs of the factory oil. Blackstone had 7 for AL while the other 2 had 20. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb..._Ac#Post3053153 I sent Blackstone an email if they could have an error for that UAO. They have not replied yet.

Blackstone lab got back to me. They looked at the spectrometer results from the Factory oil and the Mazda oil and did not see any sort of obvious errors or anything. They also said they check standards several times throughout the day. They said other elements that, when burned, give off a similar wavelength of light as aluminum, and the spectrometer tends to confuse the two elements. They (Blackstone) take that into consideration when commenting the aluminum value, perhaps the other labs did not. The way the CAT lab messed up saying I had over 11% fuel in the factory oil, then recanted, gives me little confidence in the CAT lab. See the 3 labs report thread of the factory oil: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...ord#Post3044859 Bottom line: The AL went up, but no one knows why?