Makes more sense to formulate on the "Thin Side"

[haley10]

Buster, Mobil 1 has the ESP available in Europe, no? I think the USA formulation are all to get the API Starburst. GC is unique, but Castrol does the same thing with their mainstream Syntec 30 wt.s

I think it's Starburst API certification that drive it.

If you want the prestige of being factory fill in the USA, you must have the API starburst.

[ May 12, 2005, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: haley10 ]

 

[buster]

quote:

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I think the USA formulation are all to get the API Starburst. GC is unique, but Castrol does the same thing with their mainstream Syntec 30 wt.s

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True. Making the oil as shear stable as possible would be most ideal. I would imagine it is for fuel efficiency, but what about the 40wt and 50wt viscosities? Even those are on the thin side. I guess what I'm trying to say that if you start at the low end or high end, by the end of an extended drain, you'll still be closer most likely to the orginal assigned grade, rather then go one grade up. If all oils thicken, I think this would make most sense.

 

[haley10]

No one is marketing an extended drain 20wt. and M1 is guaranteeing 15K only. Maybe you need thicker to extend beyond this interval?

No light-weight HDEO's.

 

[buster]

Here is a Mobil 0w-30 Synthetic sold in Europe good for 18,000 to 30,000 mile drains.

Viscosity @ 100C - 9.6.

I see what your saying though. I'm not sure.

Long Drain 0w-30

quote:

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Fully synthetic formulation provides extended oil drain capability in VW-Audi cars using the long service schedule (WIV)
Up to 18,000 miles/30,000 kilometres in gasoline engine cars (*)
Up to 30,000 miles/50,000 kilometres in diesel engine cars ( *)
Up to 18,000 miles/30,000 kilometres in light commercial vehicles (*)
* or 2 years whichever occurs soonest
Low viscosity to provide fuel economy and emissions reduction benefits
Excellent low temperature fluidity provides rapid circulation and wear protection at start-up particularly when cold
Excellent oxidation and thermal stability provide protection when exposed to high temperature and demanding service
Extension of oil drain intervals reduce use of new oil and disposal of used oil thus conserving resources

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quote:

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Mobil SHC Formula LD 0W-30

SAE Grade 0W-30
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40ºC 53
cSt @ 100ºC 9.6
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 167
Sulfated Ash, wt%, ASTM D 874 1.3
Total Base, mg KOH/g, ASTM D 2896 10.1
Pour Point, ºC, ASTM D 97 -39
Flash Point, ºC, ASTM D 92 223
Density @ 15ºC kg/l, ASTM D 4052 0.856

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*It does say low viscosity for fuel economy so I'd say your right.

 

[Curious Kid]

haley10 -

As for why there are no extended drain 20wts, I think that might have to do with not wanting to risk damages that may incure from say, fuel dilution etc., that further drop HTHS values. To perhaps elevate the HTHS values more to allow for any drop, the condition stated with redline having great HTHS numbers but so so cold performance may...well such a trend may continue with present technologies and "mixing".

It would be nice thought to have a 20wt that was rated A3, aiding in combating cold start wear and pumping losses, as well as enabling a piece of mind when one puts their engine to work.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

You need to include your gas pedal habits and climate around you before you decide thin - medium or (very rare cases) thick. I am a traditionalist until proven otherwise... so I prefer the medium range oils in the 10W-30/40 range for summer.... 5W-30/40 for Lower Michigan winters.

I won't even consider full-time use with the thin stuff until I read a couple 250K engine posts from places like Texas using 5W-20s and 0W-30s.

Maybe we need to start a thread searching for thin oil vehicle owners (from vehicle birth to retirement old age). I would prefer searching for "at-home" oil changers specifically because "lots" of oil change shops don't always give you the oil weight you seek.

[ May 12, 2005, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Triple_Se7en ]

 

[haley10]

Looks good Buster, but from the sulphated ash #'s, I would doubt this oil could meet SM spec. being required by the USA.

SM/GF-4 and $$$ make it hard to formulate a great extended drain oil in the USA "and" get the starburst required. I'm sure all the big guys know how, but they have to keep a certain pricing level.

I'm not sure we will see an SM/GF-4 starburst API certified extended drain oil soon. For now it might be too expensive to generate any volume of sales. Just some random thoughts.

 

[TooSlick]

The critical issue with any long drain oil is maintaining excellent low temp pumpability, even with the normal amount of oxidative thickening.
This is why almost all the very long drain oils for applications such as MB 229.5 are 0w-30,5w-30 or 0w-40 grades. Once the engine has warmed it will function perfectly fine with 40wt or even 50wt oil in the sump. Hence the continued popularity of the 5w-50 and even 10w-60 grades in Europe for high performance applications.

The problem I've seen with almost all 0w-30 oils is that you compromise wear protection, oil consumption and general engine NVH in order to achieve optimum fuel efficiency. There are solutions to this compromise, but they result in expensive lubricants....

I would agree that even the best synlubes thicken in a very predictable manner, due to both oxidation and evaporation. The best you can hope to do is minimize this effect. The "Catch 22" with the 0w-xx grades is that they tend to be more volatile then the 5w and 10w grades. When the lighter fractions of the base stock burns off the remaining oil thickens - even if the level of fuel induced contamination is low.

I personally think a less volatile 5w-30 like the S3000 or RL/5w-30 probably makes a better, VERY long drain oil than a 0w-30, even if the initial fuel efficiency is a bit lower....

TS

 

[buster]

Whether it's a 20wt or 40wt, I believe formulating on the thin side is the way to go. We all know oils "thicken" during extended drains. Some more so then others. German Castrol and Mobil 1 seem to do very well, on a % basis.

If your trying to achieve the best HT/HS, Redline does it by using higher quality basestocks. You can see that most of RL's low temp performance is so so, but their high temp is great. Their 5w-20 has a HT/HS of 3.3.

I think the main benefit though with using the low end is that by the end of the drain interval, you'll be closer to the true viscosity. Notice how 3MP said the car felt sluggish with Amsoil. That is bc it thickend to a 15w-40 viscosity. If I went with Amsoil, I'd be in the 40wt zone much quicker then with Mobil 1.

Mobil probably does this intentionally as most of all their oils in Europe meet the long drain specs. Another big reason is fuel efficiency. The only reason why "thick" 30wt oils are constantly mentioned on here is because of those with LS1 motors. For 99% of us, it won't matter. On top of that, most dino oils would shear to a 20wt anyway. Thoughts?