M1 vs. PUP Observations

Originally Posted by Gene K
Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess
Originally Posted by buster
Amsoil doubled the length of the test and claims 40% cleaner than required.

https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/ShopRes/products/900px/FF_Signature_Series_40_Percent_Cleaner.jpg



I see this is from Amsoil's latest API SP recipe, in their Signature Series (top of the line PAO / Group IV). I think that's a marketing mistake - engines are morphing into dirty pigs again with the advent of GDI. The very last thing you'd want to do is extend OCI's now - OCI is now determined on the oil's additive package's ability to suspend soot and fuel dilution until contamination limits are reached. Posters in BITOG are saying this is 5,000 miles or so.

What I'm interested in is optimized oil for the 5,000 mile OCI with GDI engines. Good DD add pack, good thermal stability - not the best that can be achieved. Signature is 3x the price of Group III's & GTL, only to be drained out. No longer worth it.


If we can suspend soot for 60,000 mi in a large diesel why would we only be able to accomplish it for 6,000 mi in a gasoline engine? Adjusting for sump volume and mpg that would be the equivalent of 30,000 mi in a Ford 5.0 GDI.


My thoughts would be that the big diesels tend to stay running and mostly highway use compared to more cold starts and short trips without the engine fully warming up etc. at the same time I do see your point too. I myself change way more than the average for sure usually always before 3000 miles.
 
I have always ran mobile 1 while also trying amsoil here and there. When I seen the claims of the penzoil ultra platinum made with natural gas I wanted to give it a try. I've not been able to find any everytime I'm out buying oil. I find the platinum but want to try the ultra platinum top of the line stuff. To this point I've never tried it so stick with mobile 1.
 
PUP was louder than M1 EP in both my Ford and GM engine … tried 5W30 in both …
After that, found M1 0w40 to be quietist …
(used a DB meter) …
 
The original ultra had PAO from CVX …
It's easy to say PP has GTL … but good luck in tracking all the various base stocks Mobil puts in the cocktails they mix now days … Buster keeps up some, but it takes an effort …
 
Originally Posted by 4WD
The original ultra had PAO from CVX …
It's easy to say PP has GTL … but good luck in tracking all the various base stocks Mobil puts in the cocktails they mix now days … Buster keeps up some, but it takes an effort …


Good point. Many companies have become very secretive with their base oil disclosure. Fair enough. I get it. I can see it both ways. People can get fixated on the wrong thing. For example "I only want a PAO based oil." Well not if it's a poorly formulated one. The flip side is people want to know what they are purchasing. You're purchasing a performance level and there really is only a few ways to measure that - testing and approvals and I guess UOA's to some extent.

Shell pushes the GTL stuff hard. Too hard IMO. Ok you're using a high end Group III+ base oil...…

Amsoil doesn't disclose anything at all. To Amsoil's credit, they do run some good tests (finally) on their oils.

Mobil gives you more of an idea, but not full disclosure.

Red Line is upfront to a large extent, but I don't consider them a large market player.

Back in the day Mobil 1 was PAO and 15% POE. Castrol changed the game and price points were targeted.

Driven and HPL also use a cocktail of base oils. From everything I read, getting hung up on wanting something purely IV/V is the wrong mindset. It's just not that simple.
 
Yeah - and most don't publish their HTHS viscosity data anymore, either. I remember the turmoil with the Castrol lawsuit circa year 2000 or so. Just before that, FTC allowed Exxon to buy Mobil (again - these two were originally broken up as part of the seven sister companies from the Standard Oil Trust).

Exxon was well renowned for focus on upstream wholesale business, where Mobil was renowned for downstream marketing and refining business. I was astonished they were allowed to recombine. I've said before, Exxon gutted Mobil R&D from people I knew at Princeton Lab back then. A BITOGer said my experience was untrue, which I didn't appreciate. It was true. I worked for Mobil and knew a number of the scientists.

So, the combination of these two events, with Shell's purchase of Pennzoil and reinvigorating the brand with a new recipe (GTL) and rave reviews on BITOG caused me to change to PUP. My HEMI definitely is quieter / smoother, in addition to not consuming oil. I don't understand why others have opposite results. I would never dispute what you've said isn't true, unlike some here. But I can't figure it out.

I'm no longer a fan boy of PAO exclusively, I get that saturated Group III is a good base oil. Don't know much about Red Line - not available around here, mostly known as a "racing oil". Now Mobil added the EP series, I'm guessing in response to PUP? Gokhan's HTHS / HTFS chart only has spotty data for oils around here currently available - again, because the blenders are starting to restrict data publication. Perhaps BITOG is becoming less useful because of it?
 
Thanks for posting your experience. For my Tacoma, the first 120k miles were run with name brand conventional and I've been running M1/M1EP for nearly 50k miles since then, now approaching 170k. Next up I'm running a jug of PUP and will be interested to see if the oil darkens more quickly. I'm happy to have such a consistent baseline with the years of M1 usage, it doesn't start changing color until around 3k and then by 7-8k it's time to drain. Anticipating questions from some BITOGers, my "time to drain" decision is based on 2-3 blotter tests over time (which is a fair indicator of suspended soot and fuel content), the Mfg recommendation of 5k on conventional, and my own comfort level.
 
Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess
Yeah - and most don't publish their HTHS viscosity data anymore, either. I remember the turmoil with the Castrol lawsuit circa year 2000 or so. Just before that, FTC allowed Exxon to buy Mobil (again - these two were originally broken up as part of the seven sister companies from the Standard Oil Trust).

Exxon was well renowned for focus on upstream wholesale business, where Mobil was renowned for downstream marketing and refining business. I was astonished they were allowed to recombine. I've said before, Exxon gutted Mobil R&D from people I knew at Princeton Lab back then. A BITOGer said my experience was untrue, which I didn't appreciate. It was true. I worked for Mobil and knew a number of the scientists.

So, the combination of these two events, with Shell's purchase of Pennzoil and reinvigorating the brand with a new recipe (GTL) and rave reviews on BITOG caused me to change to PUP. My HEMI definitely is quieter / smoother, in addition to not consuming oil. I don't understand why others have opposite results. I would never dispute what you've said isn't true, unlike some here. But I can't figure it out.

I'm no longer a fan boy of PAO exclusively, I get that saturated Group III is a good base oil. Don't know much about Red Line - not available around here, mostly known as a "racing oil". Now Mobil added the EP series, I'm guessing in response to PUP? Gokhan's HTHS / HTFS chart only has spotty data for oils around here currently available - again, because the blenders are starting to restrict data publication. Perhaps BITOG is becoming less useful because of it?


ExxonMobil Research and Engineering has a few locations, one being in Clinton, NJ. They also are part owner of Infineum.

https://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/en/products/synthetic-base-stocks

Mobil 1 EP was out long before PUP. Shell won't commit to long drain lubricants. I don't know why. I've thought maybe it's just not valuable to them or their Quick Lube market (owner of Jiffy Lube)

Regardless though, PUP and PP are top notch oils. You made a good choice.

thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess
Yeah - and most don't publish their HTHS viscosity data anymore, either. I remember the turmoil with the Castrol lawsuit circa year 2000 or so. Just before that, FTC allowed Exxon to buy Mobil (again - these two were originally broken up as part of the seven sister companies from the Standard Oil Trust).

Exxon was well renowned for focus on upstream wholesale business, where Mobil was renowned for downstream marketing and refining business. I was astonished they were allowed to recombine. I've said before, Exxon gutted Mobil R&D from people I knew at Princeton Lab back then. A BITOGer said my experience was untrue, which I didn't appreciate. It was true. I worked for Mobil and knew a number of the scientists.

So, the combination of these two events, with Shell's purchase of Pennzoil and reinvigorating the brand with a new recipe (GTL) and rave reviews on BITOG caused me to change to PUP. My HEMI definitely is quieter / smoother, in addition to not consuming oil. I don't understand why others have opposite results. I would never dispute what you've said isn't true, unlike some here. But I can't figure it out.

I'm no longer a fan boy of PAO exclusively, I get that saturated Group III is a good base oil. Don't know much about Red Line - not available around here, mostly known as a "racing oil". Now Mobil added the EP series, I'm guessing in response to PUP? Gokhan's HTHS / HTFS chart only has spotty data for oils around here currently available - again, because the blenders are starting to restrict data publication. Perhaps BITOG is becoming less useful because of it?


ExxonMobil Research and Engineering has a few locations, one being in Clinton, NJ. They also are part owner of Infineum.

https://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/en/products/synthetic-base-stocks

Mobil 1 EP was out long before PUP. Shell won't commit to long drain lubricants. I don't know why. I've thought maybe it's just not valuable to them or their Quick Lube market (owner of Jiffy Lube)

Regardless though, PUP and PP are top notch oils. You made a good choice.

thumbsup2.gif


The last Pennzoil PCMO to be marketed as extended drain interval was called PZL Extended Life Motor Oil, not to be confused with PZL Turbo 10W-30. It had been discontinued just before I started working for them in early 1985, and existing stocks were being depleted. It claimed it could be used for up to 15K miles. I understood it was disco'd due to poor sales. Within a couple of years a member of senior management told me that it was policy to never recommend an OCI longer than the OEM's. Gena has said something similar on this board, I believe. At the time, I was told recommending a longer OCI was tantamount to assuming the OEM warranty liability. I'm not sure what took us from PZL Extended Life to OEM recommendation only in a few short years, but this was was before the Jiffy Lube buyout. Jiffy was, however, a very significant purchaser of Pennzoil at the time.
Now, who knows why? As the Mopar OEM oil, they don't want to contradict them. When I was told the liability reasoning, that was years before the QS merger and subsequent Shell buyout. With 100% management turnover since the implementation of the policy, they may have their own new reasons.
 
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Much like Pennzoil, Valvoline (another very good oil) refuses to get into the long drain product.

And likely lose market share as a result. I know they aren't attractive to me for that reason.
 
Thanks for weighing in with your Pennzoil background. Perhaps they had a strategy that told them long drain intervals were not the future? In any event, the old Mobil slogan of "we sell more by selling less" is past history with the advent of the GDI engine replacing MPFI engines.

I wonder if Amsoil will decline as a result, also? I know they also have their Group III XM series oils to fall back on, but that's sort of same as everybody else, then.
 
I'm glad to weigh in when I have some direct knowledge. These days, it's mostly only it's only useful as historical perspective. ...…
 
Originally Posted by Scuder
I'm glad to weigh in when I have some direct knowledge. These days, it's mostly only it's only useful as historical perspective. ...…


cheers3.gif
Still good to hear.
 
Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess
Thanks for weighing in with your Pennzoil background. Perhaps they had a strategy that told them long drain intervals were not the future? In any event, the old Mobil slogan of "we sell more by selling less" is past history with the advent of the GDI engine replacing MPFI engines.

I wonder if Amsoil will decline as a result, also? I know they also have their Group III XM series oils to fall back on, but that's sort of same as everybody else, then.

I would not count on "we sell more by selling less" is past history. Perhaps Penz and Valvoline are not confident in their long drain capabilities. M1 still warranties their oils even in the GDI era, for long drain OCIs. My 42 years of using M1 oils has proven to me they wouldn't claim it if it weren't so. M1 oils still outsell all the others by a wide margin. Here is the history of M1 oils including when EP M1 came on line in 2005. 15 years ago. M1 has a long history of keeping engines very clean over long OCIs. I won't be impressed with Penz claims of cleaner engines than M1 produce by just their advertising. Run you engines for 200-400K at longer OCIs than you are doing and check back with us.


https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/about-us/mobil-1/one-great-oil-one-great-story
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess
Thanks for weighing in with your Pennzoil background. Perhaps they had a strategy that told them long drain intervals were not the future? In any event, the old Mobil slogan of "we sell more by selling less" is past history with the advent of the GDI engine replacing MPFI engines.

I wonder if Amsoil will decline as a result, also? I know they also have their Group III XM series oils to fall back on, but that's sort of same as everybody else, then.

I would not count on "we sell more by selling less" is past history. Perhaps Penz and Valvoline are not confident in their long drain capabilities. M1 still warranties their oils even in the GDI era, for long drain OCIs. My 42 years of using M1 oils has proven to me they wouldn't claim it if it weren't so. M1 oils still outsell all the others by a wide margin. Here is the history of M1 oils including when EP M1 came on line in 2005. 15 years ago. M1 has a long history of keeping engines very clean over long OCIs. I won't be impressed with Penz claims of cleaner engines than M1 produce by just their advertising. Run you engines for 200-400K at longer OCIs than you are doing and check back with us.


https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/about-us/mobil-1/one-great-oil-one-great-story


Doubt they've ever paid a claim.

It would be extremely difficult to prove engine failure due to lubricant failure.

It's marketing.
 
Originally Posted by john_pifer
It would be extremely difficult to prove engine failure due to lubricant failure.

It's marketing.

There's a reason for that, and it's not marketing.
 
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess
Thanks for weighing in with your Pennzoil background. Perhaps they had a strategy that told them long drain intervals were not the future? In any event, the old Mobil slogan of "we sell more by selling less" is past history with the advent of the GDI engine replacing MPFI engines.

I wonder if Amsoil will decline as a result, also? I know they also have their Group III XM series oils to fall back on, but that's sort of same as everybody else, then.

I would not count on "we sell more by selling less" is past history. Perhaps Penz and Valvoline are not confident in their long drain capabilities. M1 still warranties their oils even in the GDI era, for long drain OCIs. My 42 years of using M1 oils has proven to me they wouldn't claim it if it weren't so. M1 oils still outsell all the others by a wide margin. Here is the history of M1 oils including when EP M1 came on line in 2005. 15 years ago. M1 has a long history of keeping engines very clean over long OCIs. I won't be impressed with Penz claims of cleaner engines than M1 produce by just their advertising. Run you engines for 200-400K at longer OCIs than you are doing and check back with us.


https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/about-us/mobil-1/one-great-oil-one-great-story


Doubt they've ever paid a claim.

It would be extremely difficult to prove engine failure due to lubricant failure.

It's marketing.

It's also hard to prove the quality of an oil without engine tear down. Wear, deposit and varnish, etc.
 
I'm not interested in running an engine 200k-400k miles. I'm interested in optimal performance all the time, which includes clean piston rings / grooves and solenoid valve ports for cam phasers and MDS systems without which, bad things start to occur.
 
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