M1 SS 10W-30 & 15W-50 -- 9000 miles -- VW 1.8L Turbo

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Location
San Clemente, CA
Motor / Model: ‘01 VW 1.8L Turbo / New Beetle (4-sp Auto)
Mods: 1.0 Bar ECU since 50k (stock @ 0.7 Bar)
Engine miles / Oil miles: 87k / 9k
Sump size / Filter type: 4.6 qts / Mann (OEM)
Oil type: Mobil 1 SS 10W-30 (2.6 qts), SS 15W-50 (2.0 qts)
Make-up: 1.5 qts (1 qt 10W-30, 0.5 qt 15W-50)
Length of service: 6 months (11/04 – 04/05)

Maintenance:
M1 SS 5W-30 and then M1 SS 0W-40 were used since 25k with OCI at 7.5k. Decided to settle with SS 10W-30, which has been in service year-round for the last 2 years. This is the first interval for this mixture of 10W-30 and 15W-50. (See "My Comments" section below.) At the 80k tune-up, new plugs, air & oil filters were replaced and all fluids checked. At 85.5k, half a bottle (7.5 oz) of Redline SI-1 was added to a 14.5 gal tank for a long trip at speeds of 70-95 MPH.

Use condition & weather:
Daily beater (60% hwy - 40% rush hour). Long trips includes 2 x 600 mi trips (70-95 MPH with AC) to Death Valley and Las Vegas at cool ambient temps and 2 x 375 mi camping trips at 4 – 6,000 ft. altitude. Weather has been one of the wettest in California history and temperature ranged 40* - 85*F.

Analysis by Blackstone

Element: @ 87k --- Universal @ 5.3k
Aluminum: 2 --- 3
Chromium: 1 --- 1
Iron: 13 --- 13
Copper: 14 --- 7 (Wear rate ppm/1,000 mi: 1.55 --- 1.32)
Lead: 1 --- 6
Tin: 1 --- 0
Moly: 83 --- 49
Nickel: 1 --- 1
Manganese: 0 --- 1
Silver: 0 --- 0
Titanium: 0 --- 0
Potassium: 2 --- 1
Boron: 107 --- 60
Silicon: 7 --- 9
Sodium: 8 --- 5
Calcium: 2838 --- 2454
Magnesium: 18 --- 137
Phosphorus: 954 --- 757
Zinc: 1051 --- 896
Barium: 0 --- 0

Properties: As tested --- Should be
Sus Visc 210*F: 70.4 --- 59-68
Flashpoint *F: 385 --- >365
Fuel %: Antifreeze %: 0.0 --- 0
Water %: 0.0 --- Insolubles %: 0.3 --- TBN: 2.7 --- N/A

Comments by Blackstone:
Universal averages show typical wear from the VW 1.8L Turbo after 5,300 miles. This oil was in place longer, and most wear was around average, though copper, from brass or bronze parts (such as turbo bushing) read high. This level isn’t high enough to call a major problem, but is something we would like to keep an eye on. Other than that, everything looks great. This high viscosity was from the 15W-50 use and not a problem. The TBN was okay at 2.7. Stay at 9,000 miles for now until we know what copper is going to do.

My Comments:
Since the 1.0 Bar ECU, I’ve been curious how a thicker oil would affect engine wear and performance. Instead of M1 SS 0W-40, which has consistently shown a shearing down at 3-5k, I opted for a mixture of 60% 10W-30 and 40% 15W-50 for reasons that they contain very little VII and have proven to be very stable. OCI was increased for the first time from 7.5k to 9.0k and I'm aiming for 10k.

Positive effects:
Quieter engine at freeway speeds and noticeable decrease in valve-train clatter at cold start-ups.

Negative effects:
Engine was noticeably sluggish during cold mornings when oil was new. Gas mileage decreased ~0.5 MPG for about 4k and returned to its average rate at 26-26.5 MPG (mixed driving). However, gas mileage rose to its highest since new (26.5-27.5 MPG)after the Redline treatment.

What do you guys think about the overall result and the slightly high Copper reading?

TIA
Niki
 
Good numbers. Maybe the turbo is just spinning harder and for longer given your change to boost, making more copper.

Why not just go with Mobil 1 Truck and SUV? Shearing is supposedly not an issue with that oil and it has more extended pressure additives that could help the copper wear.
 
427Z06 - 1/2 bottle of Redline SI-1 was added to a 14.5 gallon tank for a trip to Death Valley. This was about 1,500 miles before the oil change. I've used Redline in small dosage before and never saw an increase. With 1/2 a bottle, I guess it was potent enough to be effective.

Geoff - Once my 10W-30 stash runs out, I'll give the new 5W-40 a try. Costco better gets its act together and start selling this stuff. Gosh, don't they look at their parking lots?!?
grin.gif
 
Niki,

Since you live in CA, it's easy to find Redline Oils on the shelf. If I was to use an alternate product in my 225 HP Audi TT, it would be the RL 10w-30. This oil will give you wear protection that is comparable to what you're seeing here, along with significantly better performance during the warmup phase and higher fuel efficiency. Give Terry Dyson a call and ask for a second opinion - I believe he'll tell you the same thing. Needless to say, neither of us has any professional affiliation with Redline. As you well know, I actually sell a competitive product....

Trust me and run RL several times in a row - test the 2nd or 3rd batch you run and you'll be very satisfied with the results. You should have no problem running RL for at least 10k miles in this application and it works especially well with the 1.8L, VW/Audi turbo motors.

By the way, I believe the copper is coming from the core of that little, oil to coolant, heat exchanger that sits right above your oil filter mount. I don't think it's anything to worry about. You will see more copper if the engine is running hotter, but it's a chemical leaching affect where the reaction rate is proportional to the average oil temps.

Tooslick
 
I'm sure TooSlick gave you good advice..as usual. I am happy to see that the mixing of these two oils did a great job. I'm not saying that it is doing better than the 10W-30 RL that TooSlick recomends bc I have absolutely no idea. But this report helps validate that mixing the 10W-30 and 15W-50 M1 is a sound idea.
smile.gif
 
Just curious, did you do a UOA on the M1 10w-30 alone? I don't necessarily see a point of mixing it with a thicker grade of M1 in this application...
dunno.gif


In CA, that new M1 EP 10w-40 should also be a good option for this engine, me thinks.
 
TS: As much as I like RL products and use their gear oil my 944S tranny, local retailers are charging $9 - $10 per quart while M1 runs $4 per quart at Costco. With the exception of Cu, I'm satisfied with this report. Most other 1.8T UOAs with single digit Cu are usually in the 5-7k OCI. The famous 17.6k & 15k UOAs from Coolvdub had Cu readings of 30ppm and 26ppm respectively... higher than mine in terms of ppm/1000 mile.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000784#000000

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001006

You may be right about the oil-coolant heat exchanger. The motor is back on 10W-30, which means slightly lower oil operating temp. We'll see what happens down the road. The car is due for a new timing belt / tensioner / thermostat so I'll be tearing down the lower IC pipe to see if the turbo is bleeding oil or anything else!

Thanks for you input!

Niki

[ May 05, 2005, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Bugzii ]
 
QuattroPete: The last time I did an UOA was at 35k, before I had the 1.0 Bar chip. It was for M1 SS 0W-40 after 7.5k. Metal wear #s were 1-2ppm higher than the current report but Cu was 8ppm. Fuel dilution was higher at 1% but still within limits. The 1.0 Bar chip has a leaner fuel map than the stock program (except when you get on it!) In fact, gas mileage has gotten better with the chip, especially recently. I never thought this car could hit 27 MPG (mixed driving) with a 4-speed Auto.

You might be right that 10W-30 is sufficient. I'm not concerned so much as curious how this brew performs since I got the chip and have been driving more enthusiastically. I'll consider the new EP from Mobil once my 10W-30 is depleted.

How's your A4 doing?

Niki
 
Guys lets not forgett taht he has a reflashed 1 Bar ECU. If I am understanding his post this would increase the boost presure to higher output levels then associated with a stock ECU! SO with that said he is seeing higher fuel economy as well. I think his combination is working well. His lead is 1/6 the universal average and he went almost double the milage of the universal average. All of that and a more agresive ECU to boot! I too think Redline 10W30 would be wortha try!! I think Delvac-1 5W40 is also a good call! I think this combination has of M1 10W30 adn M1 15W50 has done a good job!
 
AFAIK, all the aftermarket chips for 1.8T remap the fuel so that it results in better MPG figures if you don't stomp on it, including my 1.2 bar GIAC X chip. Of course, nobody buys a chip to drive it like a grandma.
grin.gif


Bugzii,
That 27 mpg in mixed driving is indeed pretty good. I'm nowhere near that with quattro, heavy foot, 3250 lbs of weight, and mostly city driving.

The engine seems to be doing well running on SLX 0w-30. You can find my UOAs comparing it to M1 0w-40 in the archives. But I change it every 5K miles mainly because it takes me a long while to get there (8 months to a year). Also, I have smaller oil sump.

I've been seeing DTCs related to my oxygen sensor (lambda) lately - I should probably replace it soon, although I haven't seen it affecting the car's performance or mileage yet.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Quattro Pete:
I've been seeing DTCs related to my oxygen sensor (lambda) lately - I should probably replace it soon, although I haven't seen it affecting the car's performance or mileage yet.

There're 2 Lambda sensors, one before and aft the CAT. Do you know which?
 
quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:

quote:

Originally posted by Bugzii:
However, gas mileage rose to its highest since new (26.5-27.5 MPG) after the Redline treatment.

RedLine gas treatment? How much, when?


I buy Red Line SI-1 for $3.59 for a 15 oz bottle at a local speed shop - Vic Hubbard's Auto Supply in Hayward, CA. However - I believe you can find it at Pep Boys, although I'm not sure what the current price would be although I think it was around $5. The only RL products that most Pep Boys would carry are the SI-1, fuel system water remover, diesel fuel treatment, and Water Wetter.
 
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