Is it a fact that M1 will keep a new engine cleaner (internally) than conventional oil?
M1 cleaner than conventional oil?
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Yes.
...a loaded question and a snap answer. Is M1 a cleaner running oil? Let's say yes, for argument's sake, at the same change interval. Problem is that the cost is several times what decent or even outstanding ""dino"" (double quotes) oil can be bought for. Gruppe II, II+ and even a GIII blend by Motorcraft for a buck and change. So, can you run Mobil 1 for TWICE or THREE TIMES as long as say, Havoline, Motorcraft, HDEOs with *better* results? I say no. Two reasons come to mind. One is if you add up all the TBN (expressed in amount of acid neutralized in moles or something) in twice as many quarts of the "dino" I believe it far exceeds the capacity of 1/2 the amount of Mobil 1. Looking at the physical end of things, the process of physically removing all comtaminates (abrasives, oxidizing agents, unburned fuel, etc) twice as often cannot be matched by a single fill of Mobil 1. Someone might respond by saying "oh, what about the filter costs?". I say even a drain and re-fill of fresh dino oil, on the same filter, can compete with Mobil 1. Now, add in the added filtration and crap-holding capacity of a NEW filter and you can see how (maybe
) dino oil is not so bad after all. Can I interest anyone in a 25,000 mile drain with AMSOIL?
It's in the application and how you value your time.I like M1 and I use it in my Toyota's in the 5W30 grade.
In one hand I have a Sienna that has a reputation for being hard on the oil.UOA's have shown synthetics are probably the way to go with 5K intervals being acceptable in this application.
In the other I have a Corolla with an engine thats not too hard on oil and has shown really good UOA's with M1 with 7.5K intervals done by others.I've use pretty M1 exclusively in this motor and it's clean.
My mother in law gets her Corolla changed at a dealer every 3k and there was still varnish build up under the valve cover although it wasn't heavy but,never the less it's still there.This is with 33k miles on the motor.The dealer usually adds BG MOA to most every oil change if that means anything.
In one hand I have a Sienna that has a reputation for being hard on the oil.UOA's have shown synthetics are probably the way to go with 5K intervals being acceptable in this application.
In the other I have a Corolla with an engine thats not too hard on oil and has shown really good UOA's with M1 with 7.5K intervals done by others.I've use pretty M1 exclusively in this motor and it's clean.
My mother in law gets her Corolla changed at a dealer every 3k and there was still varnish build up under the valve cover although it wasn't heavy but,never the less it's still there.This is with 33k miles on the motor.The dealer usually adds BG MOA to most every oil change if that means anything.
Well, his question wasn't about economics or whether or not dino oils can also provide satisfactory performance. Strictly on the question of cleanliness, I'd have to say yes too. I used M1 almost exclusively for ten years and 150k miles in a Honda Civic and on the day I sold the car, all you could see through the oil filler was a head and camshaft that were as silvery spotless and shiny as the day the engine was bolted together. In contrast, my Dad who has been a Saab guy for years, uses dino and changes on a 3-4k OCI. A few years ago, I saw the engine in one of his cars that had about 125k at the time and while it certainly wasn't sludgy, it did have significant varnish on the non-contact metal surfaces. I know this is only one case, but I think it pretty well illustrates the comparision between typical dino performance and syn performance.
Dosen't really sound like a tightly-controlled scientific experiment. All you are doing is comparison of two random engines in different cars that may have or may not have a harmless coloration. Although dino oil in a turbo is not advised, were there any oil issues with the Saab? I believe you MUST consider economics when looking at a service issue. Why not have custom-blended NASA super-oil changed every day when $.89c dino every year or two will keep a car running fine? Economics. Is Mobil 1 worth twice or three times the cost of dino oil? Sometimes yes in a turbo or an exotic that is diffficult to service, mostly no. Depends on the application. Generally, twice-a-year with quality dino is better than once a year Mobil 1, imo. If somone wants to contest that assertion, fine. Just don't try to say the comparison is not an economic issue if you don't like the idea just because you wasted a bunch of money on Mobil 1.
If you keep your vehicles forever like I do its a no brainer, synthetics is the choice! I used dino and I have used synthetics. In all the research I have done synthetics for my situation are perfect. I just wish I figured this out years ago it would have saved me a ton of $$$$$.
Daily Drives:
-2003 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner XtraCab, 2.7 Liter , Mobil1 Synthetic SS 5W-30.
ODO 9300Miles.
-1995 Toyota 4-Runner 3.0 V6, Mobil1 Synthetic SS 10W-30.
ODO 91400 Miles.
http://community.webshots.com/user/amkeer
Daily Drives:
-2003 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner XtraCab, 2.7 Liter , Mobil1 Synthetic SS 5W-30.
ODO 9300Miles.
-1995 Toyota 4-Runner 3.0 V6, Mobil1 Synthetic SS 10W-30.
ODO 91400 Miles.
http://community.webshots.com/user/amkeer
Run the dino for the first 60K miles at 4K mile OCI and then switch to Mobil 1 for the next 40K miles with a 5K mile OCI now check the valve adjustment at 100K miles and guess what? The engine looks like new. I don't know what it looked like at 60K since I didn't check the valves at 60K but at 100K miles it was clean. I guess it doesn't matter how you get there as long as you get there. This was on a 95 LC with a 4.5 liter straight six.
I guess you would have to run a controlled experiment to say for sure. My opinion of synthetics is they are probably worth the money if 1) you have regular cold starts in very cold climates 2) you hate changing oil and want to do extended drains 3)you plan on keeping a car for over 250,000 miles.
Yes.
However, not particularly because of anything unique that Mobil puts in its formulation.
If you compare mineral oils to synthetics - PAO (polyalphaolefin), diester, or polyolester - you find that the mineral oils themselves break down and leave behind varnish and other deposits.
In addition the synthetics hold more contaminants in suspension.
And, particularly polyolester, they are more naturally detergent.
The only downside to the synthetics might be the presence of moisture (e.g., crankcase condensation) with the diesters and polyolesters, where I'd expect to see the mineral oil and PAO do a better job.
Whether this translates into better gas mileage, longer engine life, or anything else is another question.
I should have been clearer. My observations were offered only as that -- just observations. This is certainly NOT evidence from which you can draw conclusions with scientific or statistical certainty. This observation is, however, suggestive of the results a lot of folks have had or seen is use or observation of syns and dinos in the real world.quote:
Originally posted by Audi Junkie:
Dosen't really sound like a tightly-controlled scientific experiment. All you are doing is comparison of two random engines in different cars that may have or may not have a harmless coloration. Although dino oil in a turbo is not advised, were there any oil issues with the Saab? I believe you MUST consider economics when looking at a service issue. Why not have custom-blended NASA super-oil changed every day when $.89c dino every year or two will keep a car running fine? Economics. Is Mobil 1 worth twice or three times the cost of dino oil? Sometimes yes in a turbo or an exotic that is diffficult to service, mostly no. Depends on the application. Generally, twice-a-year with quality dino is better than once a year Mobil 1, imo. If somone wants to contest that assertion, fine. Just don't try to say the comparison is not an economic issue if you don't like the idea just because you wasted a bunch of money on Mobil 1.
I have personally done and seen 10k mile oil change intervals with M1, and have had great sucess. Doesnt M1 have a detergent/cleaning package, that is superior to a Dino oil??
If you change both dino or m1 at 3k intervals, wouldnt there be no comparison once the engine hits 150k or so?
I currently change m1 at 6k mile intervals in a 2003 2.2L Ecotec engine, and visually (i know this really doesnt amount to much) the oil when drained at 6k is just a tad darker then maple syrup. Never have i had such result with a dino drain at 6k, its usually black, and not possible to see through. Doesnt that clearly show that mobil 1 is keeping the engine clean, and deposit free, so each 6k drain with mobil 1, the oil looks cleaner each time. lol, i am sure someone is going to put me in my place. This is just an observation, and i am not trying to proove anything, someone can explain to me anything they feel is inacurate in this statement.
If you change both dino or m1 at 3k intervals, wouldnt there be no comparison once the engine hits 150k or so?
I currently change m1 at 6k mile intervals in a 2003 2.2L Ecotec engine, and visually (i know this really doesnt amount to much) the oil when drained at 6k is just a tad darker then maple syrup. Never have i had such result with a dino drain at 6k, its usually black, and not possible to see through. Doesnt that clearly show that mobil 1 is keeping the engine clean, and deposit free, so each 6k drain with mobil 1, the oil looks cleaner each time. lol, i am sure someone is going to put me in my place. This is just an observation, and i am not trying to proove anything, someone can explain to me anything they feel is inacurate in this statement.
Cleanliness is by its very nature a very unscientific/anecdotal subject.
My '95 Civic saw Mobil 1 almost exclusively and had a little visible varnish on it at the 110,000 mark ... but the motor saw too many oils to suggest anything conclusively ... and had a coolant leak. I ran it around with that leak for about a year and a half.
However, I've heard too many people marvel at how clean Mobil 1 keeps engines to believe otherwise ... at least past formulations of Mobil 1. If Supersyn truly has been de-esterified, then its high natural detergency may be gone ... and along with it might be the ability to keep engines exceptionally clean.
Someone posted a picture of a torn-down Subaru engine here which had something like 75,000 miles on nothing but Chevron Supreme (dino) and it looked extraordinarily clean. Sweet.
I have a Honda Tractor (18hp, 2-cylinder, liquid cooled) and after 7-8 years and about 600 hours, the motor is literally spotless. Looks like they put it together yesterday.
It used a variety of oils during its life (Mobil 1, homemade synthetic blends, etc ...) but for the last two years it's been using Schaeffer 15W40 blend.
--- Bror Jace
My '95 Civic saw Mobil 1 almost exclusively and had a little visible varnish on it at the 110,000 mark ... but the motor saw too many oils to suggest anything conclusively ... and had a coolant leak. I ran it around with that leak for about a year and a half.
However, I've heard too many people marvel at how clean Mobil 1 keeps engines to believe otherwise ... at least past formulations of Mobil 1. If Supersyn truly has been de-esterified, then its high natural detergency may be gone ... and along with it might be the ability to keep engines exceptionally clean.
Someone posted a picture of a torn-down Subaru engine here which had something like 75,000 miles on nothing but Chevron Supreme (dino) and it looked extraordinarily clean. Sweet.
I have a Honda Tractor (18hp, 2-cylinder, liquid cooled) and after 7-8 years and about 600 hours, the motor is literally spotless. Looks like they put it together yesterday.
It used a variety of oils during its life (Mobil 1, homemade synthetic blends, etc ...) but for the last two years it's been using Schaeffer 15W40 blend.
--- Bror Jace
Audi Junkie, all you are doing is giving your opinion, how is that any more valid than somebody giving anecdotal evidence. At least he has really seen what he is reporting you again are just stating your opinion, and we know what those are worth.
AJ: Since we're piling on to you
, I also have to respectfully disagree with the economic portion of your opinion. First, you need to ask what role economics play for the individual consumer. If one insists that economics be a (or the) primary analytical factor, then you'd have to say that anyone who owns and drives anything but the cheapest, mini-engined fuel sipper, is making a "bad" or "incorrect" choice. Virtually any eight or six cylinder car would fail this test (as would, ahem, ALL Audis). The vast majority of us are not required to make transportation decisions by strict, cold, hard economic factors. Instead, we do what we LIKE and WANT. How many Audis, MBs, Lexi, or Infinities can be justified on economic terms? In like fashion, while there are plenty of objective, rational distinctions to be drawn between syns and dinos, there's a big subjective component too. If an owner FEELS GOOD changing Mobil-1 or even Redline on a 3/3 basis, that's his choice. We can explain the objective merits all day, but in the end, it's the individual's choice whether to emphasize strict economy or other factors in such choices. If an owner decides to go 3/3 on Redline for feel good reasons and he can afford it, no, it's not an economic issue.
EDIT to add last sentence.
[ July 13, 2004, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
EDIT to add last sentence.
[ July 13, 2004, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
Jr. Member-
opinion???
Rational thought. ...and what do you call the spew/babble in your post? Some deep insight? lol, a college boy and it shows.
..as far as I know, Audi is the best car made.
VW/Porsche/Audi/Bentley/Lamborgini/Bugatti/Skoda/SEAT
verses???
lol
...anyone else here driven an RS6?
[ July 13, 2004, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Audi Junkie ]
opinion???
..as far as I know, Audi is the best car made.
VW/Porsche/Audi/Bentley/Lamborgini/Bugatti/Skoda/SEAT
verses???
lol
...anyone else here driven an RS6?
[ July 13, 2004, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Audi Junkie ]
Let's keep it on track and friendly,
Thanks
Thanks
Cleaner than most. In the past I have to say yes in general but not exclusive of all dinos.
Today, maybe not as much as in the past, but inclusive of all dinos, still no, however more likely for most if not all OTC dinos it would.
I have seen some cars that it did varnish up. A frineds truck has less than 100K and it is coated with varnish from M1 but he goes 10-15K per drain with no top-ups (and he needs to top up).
Forget Mobil 1, let's talk Castrol. I'd love to know what oil the mighty R8 uses for the 24 hours of LeMans, 1st, 2nd & 3rd place for the last 4 years. Maybe it is the same Castrol RS6 oil that the "best" sedan in the World includes an extra litre with instructions not to use any other oil, even for topping. By chance, the same Castrol could potentially have been used during the top-speed World Record runs at Nurenburgring 2 years ago, resulting in more World Records than any other car company, I mean OIL company. Right, that's what this post is about, oil.
1000hp Bugatti Veyron, that pig must burn some oil, eh?
[ July 14, 2004, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Audi Junkie ]
[ July 14, 2004, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Audi Junkie ]
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