M1 5w40 TSUV shear down in my UOA...

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here is my UOA report and i was pretty surprised to see the shear to a 30wt? any idea's? fuel dilution has been corrected, could that have caused the problem? ran this car for 20 hours of very hard racing using M1 5w40 TSUV. The previous fill was Schaeffers 9000 5w40. This car is air cooled,non-turbo and has a dry sump oiling system with a capicity of 12 quarts. When oil is changed approximatey 2.5 quarts will remain in the oil cooler and lines. Filter was Mahle. I ran Sunoco 100 octane leaded racing fuel and the filter was stock Porsche paper filter. The results were evaluated by Terry Dyson (the most terrific service I have ever received. I am running 15w50 Redline for the next interval and the fuel situation is being corrected asap. AL 3 Chromium 1 Iron 10 Copper 28 Lead 193 (I run leaded race fuel) Nickel 2 Tin 1 Moly 129 Mg 0 Silver 1 Ti 0 Potassium 1 Boron 36 Silicon 6 Sodium 6 Calcium 2439 Magnesium 256 Phos 1047 Zinc 1329 Barium 0 Viscosity 67.1 Flash Point 345 Fuel % 1.5 Coolant N/A air cooled Water 0 Insolubles% .20 normal TBN/TAN 1.5 2.8 Corrected [ May 23, 2006, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Bio-T ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 44 | From: brecksville,ohio | Registered: Jul 2005 | IP: Logged |
 

JAG

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I will offer my thoughts but if it disagrees with what Terry told you, then ignore mine. 3 things stand out to me that seem related: low viscosity (for this oil), low flash point, and lower TBN than I'd expect from this oil. I think that's from fuel dilution and think that more ended up in the fuel and got evaporated off than normal considering it was raced for so many hours (probably got quite hot). In other words, I suspect that more fuel ended entered and exited the oil than the 1.5% fuel level would normally suggest. I'd get a good air/fuel ratio gauge and see if it runs quite rich in racing conditions. Of course, make sure your spark plugs are top notch and gapped properly because if they are lacking not all of the fuel will get burnt that could be. But that's just my take on this.
 
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I also experienced possible shearing with the 5W40. Although my sample had some variables in it. I ran a 60/40 mix of M1 5W30 and 5W40. So the mixed viscosity should have been at the high range of the 30wt. But at the end of 10K miles, the oil was at the low end of the 30wt range (~59). I was not too concerned because the wear numbers came back pretty good. But I was a little surprised that the 5W40 did not thicken the oil more. Also, where the the moly come from? The 5W40 should not have any moly. 129 is a bit much for residue.
 
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There is something going on here. M1 5w-40 seldom shears. A bit of dirt seems to have gotten into your intake. You also have some other issues going on here that I am sure Terry informed you have that you cannot and should not disclose here out of respect for Terry.
 

oliver88

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i race at Mid-Ohio and Beaverun primarily...there was an air filter issue and the moly was from the 2.5 qts. of Schaeffers 9000 5w40 that remained in the oil cooler when i changed the dry sump tank and engine sump oil. never had a problem until this last run on M1 5w40...definitelt have a rich condition and we are working on it as we speak...i will be running 15w50 Redline for 10 hours and then will drain and test. thanks for all the suggestions...any other ideas?
 
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I would think all of the readings and issues are from the fuel, it is likely that a lot more fuel went through the crankcase and volatized out than the 1.5% that was left behind.
 
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My thoughts: But first some background: I run M1 5W-40 T&SUV oil in my Ferrari F355B on race tracks, so I have some experience with this oil (and some others in similar circumstances). I do not run leaded fuels,... In my experience, all of the oils that I have tried have sheared down under race track conditions. I notice on the drive home (its a street car) that the oil pressure is 5 PSI lower than on the drive to the track. I atribute this to shearing. Since the pressure remains above 85PSI, I am not worried about the pressure, but that it has changes and changes back to the original pressure when the oil is changed indicates that it is something about the oil. This 5 PSI loss was also seen on 15W-50 oils (M1, RL), 10W-40 oils (M1, AMSoil), 5W-40 oils(RL, M1 T&SUV), and 10W-30 oils (RL); all on race tracks. Therefore, I change my oil after each race track event (day or weekend). I can get at most 3 hours of use on the oil in a weekend at my tracks. Since my average speed on my typical track is 97 MPH (with I will round to 100 to make the rest of the math easy), I get 300 miles on my oil at a race track. you are trying to put 2,000 miles on your oil at the race track, or almost 7 times as long as I. My Ferrari has 10 Qts of oil in its dry sump, you have 11 Qts. So the conditions are compariable as is the size of the engine, revs, and operating conditions (excepting if anything air cooled race cars run hotter than water cooled race cars.) To me, the copper is worrysome in your oil analysis while iron looks fine. However, I would not use any oil for the duration you have on this oil in a vauable race motor.
 
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Mitch, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to indicate that you're measuring the "remaining life" of the oil by how much it has sheared. Are we so sure that the oil is "used up" if it has sheared a couple cSt? Maybe it's HTHS viscosity isn't affected as much as the kinematic viscosity? I would think that oxidation, nitration, fuel dilution, TBN, insolubles and other debris would be a better measuring of the "remaining life" of the oil? oliver88, is there any copper in your oil cooler or the associated lines?
 
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Is the assumption here that it's truly shearing since the fuel % isn't high enough to warrant the lower visc [Confused] ..I ask cuz I see shear and fuel dilution swapped back and forth without any distinction [I dont know]
 
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427Z06: My point was that after a day or weekend at the track, I can see a pressure change while driving at normal conditions (60 MPH 3,000 RPM, coolant=200dF, oil temp=200dF) and that this is different than when I arrived. I can also tell when I have not been to a race track and just driven normally, that the pressure drop does not occur in my std OCI (3,000 on this car). Whether the pressure loss is viscosity, dirt, or wearing out of the anti-wear package of the oil; I don't really care, I feel uncomfortable with this oil under normal operating conditions; enough so that I change the oil. Is the oil used up? maybe not, however with F355 engine rebuilds in the $25K range, $50 worth of new oil is "not so bad". Is the HTHS harmed? Once again I don't really know, hoever the recommended oil has an original HTHS of 4.2, and it is very hard to find a xW-40 oil these days with this high an HTHS. So I worry and fret. And more often than not, this fretting leads to an early oil change rather than gritting of my teeth longer. Warrented? Maybe! My oil comes out a nice translucent shade of iced Lipton tea. with no copper, lead, or steel particle visible (and we do look). Fuel dillution is simply not a problem when the oil temp is in the 265dF range.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Mitch Alsup: ...with F355 engine rebuilds in the $25K range, $50 worth of new oil is "not so bad"...
Perfectly sound reasoning I find impossible to debate. [Cool]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Mitch Alsup: ...the recommended oil has an original HTHS of 4.2, and it is very hard to find a xW-40 oil these days with this high an HTHS.
RedLine's 10w40 HTHS is 4.7.
 

oliver88

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I had better success with the 9000 series Schaeffers than i did with M1 5w40. It did not shear too badly. I have another race weekend coming up June 2,3,4 so i will send another sample in after that...should be 4 hours total.
 

oliver88

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abimanyu, I usually do run race oils...I used Schaeffers a few times last season and the M1 was the winter storage oil....will probably continue with Redline depending on what the next Dyson Analysis says. TooSlick, no doubt the fuel dilution is a problem. Terry said that is the biggest culprit...It has been corrected and i will be racing next weekend and the weekend after. New UOA to come soon!
 
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