M1 20W-50 & 15W-50

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Robenstein


Maybe no one really wants to spend the monetary resources and time to do it.



True... No one wants to beat his test with their own test because the task is dressed in coveralls and looks like work...


Notice I mentioned monetary sources primarily....cost of doing the thing. But that is a valid objection, so of course you fail to address it.

150 different oil and additive mixes is not cheap for the average Joe to purchase. Let alone have tested. It is cost prohibitive for the great majority of us who live pretty much paycheck to paycheck in the real world.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Robenstein


Maybe no one really wants to spend the monetary resources and time to do it.



True... No one wants to beat his test with their own test because the task is dressed in coveralls and looks like work...




Nonsense.

Rat used a 1 armed bandit and a bearing which anyone with even a partial brain knows doesn't represent how oil works in a running engine.
First off the oil is cold. So measuring the anti-wear capability of cold oil is dumb only because the oil doesn't stay cold.
Next the oil lays down an anti wear layer. Do tell how that happens in this absolutely nonsense test.
Third pert plus rates very highly using this testing protocol.

So Larry. Since you put so much stock in this absurdity why not put your money where your mouth is and run pert plus in your crankcase. According to you it should work great considering it'll score over 100000psi on that stupid contraption.
You make me laugh.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

If you're like me... and I pray to God you're not... you value DOERS over TALKERS...

TALKERS with their biting criticism even with the best of wills brings forth little benefit...

DOERS when you want some testing done get a doer...

540 Rat's complete body of work that can not be found anywhere else... you decide...

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

Section 1 – Motor Oil “Wear Protection” Ranking List
Section 2 – Motor Oil Viscosity Selection
Section 3 – Motor Oil Thermal Breakdown Test Data
Section 4 – Motor Oil component quantity Lab Test results
Section 5 – Reserved for future Motor Oil Test Data
Section 6 – Detailed Motor Oil and Mechanical Tech Articles NOTE: Some
of the motor oil Articles were written before the most recently tested
motor oils were added to the Wear Protection Ranking List in Section
1. The articles included are:

1. I-Beam vs H-Beam – which Connecting Rod is Best?
2. Rod Bolt Strength – what do we Really need?
3. Solid Roller Lifters – Bushings vs Needles, which is Best?
4. Camshaft Overlap vs LSA
5. Leak Down Tester
6. Can you really suck the Oil Pan dry?
7. Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) vs Static Compression Ratio (SCR)
8. 0W40 vs 5W30 vs 0W30
9. Aftermarket Zinc Additives – Do they Work?
10. Break-In Oils – Do we Really need them?
11. Can you always count on high zinc motor oil?
12. Diesel Oil – Is it the right choice for High Performance gasoline engines?
13. Do comparable zinc levels provide comparable wear protection?
14. Does Prolong Engine Treatment actually work?
15. Test Data on the newest Pennzoils made from Natural Gas
16. High Temp Motor Oil Wear Testing – Myth vs Reality

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Clevy


So Larry. Since you put so much stock in this absurdity why not put your money where your mouth is


I rather put Canadian money in my mouth because its got a tastey Goose on it...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
If you're like me... and I pray to God you're not... you value DOERS over TALKERS...

TALKERS with their biting criticism even with the best of wills brings forth little benefit...

DOERS when you want some testing done get a doer...

540 Rat's complete body of work that can not be found anywhere else... you decide...

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/


Believe me BSS that nobody is happier that we are unalike than I am.

If you explored even slightly those topics, you would see that some are so far off the reservation that you wouldn't be clutching at them. Some have the correct conclusion despite flaws in the logic.

But you like them, and you keep spitting them out as gospel, and I'll keep disagreeing, at which point, you resort to "cager", and talk of drive by redlining, and the Mr. Honda between your legs and the other stuff that "proves your point"...heck, you've even gained fans because you disagree with me.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Believe me BLS that nobody is happier that we are unalike than I am.


Shannow for a PHD cager I like you... I think you're smart and I
respect your knowledge but too bad your not a rider with experience...
a rider who would not only choose the recommended 30 weight instead of
the 40 and 50 weight but also champion its use in a helpful manner...
as riders I believe we would be working in concert...

 

[Shannow]

When I was in my late 30s, I was planning to get a road bike (had a YZ100 years ago, and used to ride my brother's RG250 illegally)..but realised that I would be on a steep learning curve for muscle memory, which wasn't conducive to keeping myself intact.

Nothing against 30s at all, my stash is predominantly 5W30 and 10W30 (all A3/B4 rated) when my Nissan calls for 40, and the Holden specced 20W50 when new (15W40 for snow).

For Interest, here's an excerpt from a Mobil blending guide for "small engine" and motorcycle synthetic lubes.

versus from a different guide the PCMOs.

Like I've said previously, I think you'd be better with M1 5W30, as it's viscosity is identical freezing to 100C, and it's way less VII in the mix.

A 10W30 bike oil can be made VII free.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


Like I've said previously, I think you'd be better with M1 5W30, as it's viscosity is identical freezing to 100C, and it's way less VII in the mix.


I remember you saying but sorry I wasn't sold... only after reading 540 Rat's test where
M1 5W30 ranked #10 out of 156 oils tested for wear protection do I now recommend it to my
customers and BITOG but have you noticed most members are spring loaded to 40 and 50 mercy!!!)

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Robenstein

The 10w30 is also very good, but I have not seen it in any motorcycle applications.


Did you forget DrDave and his old Harley???

Quote...
"My old Harley really liked 10w-30 Amsoil. These was a significant
reduction in wear metals going from 15-40 to 10-30. There were no
consumption issues. It certainly started easier. By easier I mean it
spun over much faster. The motor seemed quieter, and Harley's need all
the help they can get in that department."


I was talking about 10w30 VR1, not Amsoil.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis

You do know that test you're quoting is useless and not valid right?


I know some claim 540 Rat's work is useless and not valid but no one
with an opposing stand has spent their time and energy developing a
more useful independent and unbiased Engineering test of 150+ motor oils to
establish a “Wear Protection Ranking List” which EXACTLY matches real
world Track experience, real world flat tappet break-in experience,
and real world High Performance Street experience...


I personally have nothing against Rats work. I like keeping up to date and informed, whether I agree or not doesnt matter, I dont base on my decision on any one "test" or UOA.
I do find and like reading all tests including his.

However, his "tests" are now getting old and stale. Well over 3 years old but it can give someone an idea on "stable" oil makes that have been on the market for years such as Castrol. Im not endorsing what he thinks is superior, as I dont think, as he admits, having oil withstand 100,000 PSI makes it any better then oil that withstands 70,000 PSI because both oils will never see pressures about 14,000 PSI.

BUT, I like to read test information and his information is now getting old. He doesnt list the date and API of the oils he tests in most cases.

 

[LoneRanger]

You can't use the 5W30 and 10W30 Mobil 1 car oils in a wet clutch bike, they're marked "energy conserving" and contain friction modifiers that will contaminate the clutch plates and cause slippage.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
You can't use the 5W30 and 10W30 Mobil 1 car oils in a wet clutch bike, they're marked "energy conserving" and contain friction modifiers that will contaminate the clutch plates and cause slippage.



Prepare for BLS to say "You cannot defeat a wet clutch in good working order" or something to that effect. It will possibly followed with diagrams of a Honda bike engine or random photos of his bike, possibly being ridden, neither of which will offer any evidence for his argument.

 

[BigCahuna]

This may be comparing Banana's to coconuts, but Harley owners for years have been running automatic trans fluid in their wet clutch primary's without issue. The factory's oil for that application is a 50 wt oil. Most say it shift's better then the factory oil, costs less, and is alot lighter then 50 wt oil.Just from knowing that, I don't see why a 30 wt oil wouldn't work. I don't see why everyone is so dead set against a little backyard experiment of their own, instead of repeating what some engineer said years ago.,,

 

[Shannow]

JAMA said it only last year...

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
This may be comparing Banana's to coconuts, but Harley owners for years have been running automatic trans fluid in their wet clutch primary's without issue. The factory's oil for that application is a 50 wt oil. Most say it shift's better then the factory oil, costs less, and is alot lighter then 50 wt oil.Just from knowing that, I don't see why a 30 wt oil wouldn't work. I don't see why everyone is so dead set against a little backyard experiment of their own, instead of repeating what some engineer said years ago.,,


Of course there are wet clutches inside automatic transmissions, so the formulas are MADE to not give problems with wet clutch materials. There are not wet clutches inside your passenger car engine, and the oils are not formulated to behave well with them. The issue is not just viscosity, but additive packages.

 

[MoreCowbellAz]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I don't see why everyone is so dead set against a little backyard experiment of their own, instead of repeating what some engineer said years ago.,,


When it comes to Harleys (and some other things) it becomes what I call the space shuttle syndrome. People worship these precious things and over exaggerate it's needs because it makes them feel good. No harm there, but that doesn't make it meaningful in terms of the mechanics and science behind it. It's not the space shuttle. It's more like welcome to 1950.

There's probably a valid point to the add pack argument I'm guessing. I'd be curious to know if a "shortcoming" in something like that, or for that matter the "extra" you'd get out of a superior product, would be evident in the normal life of the motor. Seems like not. I mean, does it really help if a superior lube increased life from 200k to 225k, when the unit will never ever see anywhere near that usage before it gets modded or wrecked? I'm exaggerating a bit but you see the point becomes moot after awhile.

 

[BigCahuna]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
This may be comparing Banana's to coconuts, but Harley owners for years have been running automatic trans fluid in their wet clutch primary's without issue. The factory's oil for that application is a 50 wt oil. Most say it shift's better then the factory oil, costs less, and is alot lighter then 50 wt oil.Just from knowing that, I don't see why a 30 wt oil wouldn't work. I don't see why everyone is so dead set against a little backyard experiment of their own, instead of repeating what some engineer said years ago.,,
What about the thousands of motorcycles that have shared sumps? The motor oil lubes the trans, clutch, and the motor. When those 40 wt oils get sheared down to a 30 wt or less,the clutches still do their job. Regardless whose brand of oil and additives that are in there. Oil is oil. It doesn't know what it's being used in. And if you happen to gain a few extra ponies, and some smoother shifts as a side benefit, are you going to complain?. Well I guess some guys will. The same guys that would complain about being hung with a new rope.,,

Of course there are wet clutches inside automatic transmissions, so the formulas are MADE to not give problems with wet clutch materials. There are not wet clutches inside your passenger car engine, and the oils are not formulated to behave well with them. The issue is not just viscosity, but additive packages.

 

[JPP]

I will share my quick story. Back in the day I rode Harleys. On one of my many trips to Sturgis I talked to a Mobil Rep at the Mobil trailer. I told him I was running M1 15W50 in my Softail and asked if the 20W50 would be any better because it cost about double the price of the 15W50. He told me... with a wink.... that he ran the 15W50.

JP

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
You can't use the 5W30 and 10W30 Mobil 1 car oils in a wet clutch bike, they're marked "energy conserving" and contain friction modifiers that will contaminate the clutch plates and cause slippage.


Negative... Friction Modifiers are wet clutch compatible... friction modifiers have been
used many years by the lubricant industry. Many products made use of friction modifiers:

- Automatic Transmission Fluids (ATF's or those designed for smooth clutch engagement)
- Limited Slip Gear Oils for limited slip differentials and transaxles
- Multipurpose tractor fluids for wet brakes
- engine oils

Friction modification films consist of orderly, close-packed arrays of
multimolecular "whiskers," loosely adhering to each other. The outer
layers are sheared-off easily, allowing for low coefficient of friction.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein

Prepare for BLS to say "You cannot defeat a wet clutch in good working order" or something to that effect. It will possibly followed with diagrams of a Honda bike engine or random photos of his bike, possibly being ridden, neither of which will offer any evidence for his argument.



Some still warn of the possibility of Friction Modifiers causing clutch slip but they
have no personal experience to speak of... they only heard the FM cause clutch slip and
thats what they echo here... whereas I offer evidence that I've been using Energy
Conserving Mobil 1 in Mr.RC45 since 98 with no clutch slipping due to oil sporting FMs
and we are talking about Honda's race bike with tall first gear good for 90mph that's
known to incinerate clutch plates...