M1 15w50 Supersyn TGA scans

[jason07-1zzfe]

John S brings it on home again

removed link (but I attached the pics below)

Also explains why I have much more consumption with the 10w30 Supersyn!

I should have figured that myself now that I think about it and looking back at the 10w30 scans, makes perfect sense.

Supersyn better have some miracle, unprecedented anti-wear properties or it's goodbye Mobil1. Nice knowing ya.

I can't believe Mobil engineers over looked consumption. Their claim of lower is no longer true, but in fact quite the oposite.

Also anyone else notice on the product data sheets that It used to say "protects up to 475F" and now it says "protect to 400F". Nice upgrade.

[ June 18, 2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]

 

[icruse]

Originally posted by Jason Troxell:
[QB]John S brings it on home again

Also explains why I have much more consumption with the 10w30 Supersyn!

My experience is just the OPPOSITE. With the Tri Synthetic formula 0W30 I used to add about a 1/4 of a quart at 2500 miles.
Now using the newest SuperSyn formula I just passsed 3000 miles on it and it is still right on the full mark and pretty clean also.

Good Day,
Steven

[ June 18, 2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]

 

[MolaKule]

I am not sure what you are so concerned about. I see about 0.25% differences here. Why are you so concerned about the volatility at 752 F? Bulk oil temperatures generally run lower than 250 F anyway.

The only place you will see temps higher than that is in the cylinder liner, where the temperature of combustion may volatize a small amount of oil film on it. This oil film is only
about 0.000078" to begin with. This is where you need boundary protection such as a good ester, or an organometallic film - such as Moly or ZDDP. BTW, ZDDp and Moly films are only good to about 600 F and 800 F, respectively- which is why they need replenishment by the carrier oil.

All this tells me is that that may start with a 10.0 cSt PAO, add some 30 cSt PAO, and some thick esters to accomplish the VI.

Do an oil analysis and keep us posted on how much top-off oil is consumed.

 

[jjbula]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:

The only place you will see temps higher than that is in the cylinder liner, where the temperature of combustion may volatize a small amount of oil film on it. This oil film is only
about 0.000078" to begin with. This is where you need boundary protection such as a good ester, or an organometallic film - such as Moly or ZDDP. BTW, ZDDp and Moly films are only good to about 600 F and 800 F, respectively- which is why they need replenishment by the carrier oil..

---

This seems to fit into a recent discussion about Mobil 1 its new pour point and anti-wear capabilities.

[ July 21, 2002, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: jjbula ]

 

[Ray Garlington]

Jason,

Thanks for posting this, I was hoping to see what people here thought about it. The concern is the increased volatility of the supersyn at 235*F. The difference is actually a 10 fold increase in volatility, from .25% in the trisyn formulations to 2.5% in the sypersyn formulations. (Note: the 15w50 supersyn does not have this problem. Also, when you look at the supersyn graph, the 15w-50 line is where *all* the old trisyn formulations would trace out.)

Although this seems like it might be a problem when you look at the graph, perhaps it really isn't in actual practice. Perhaps most engines don't have many parts that are actually getting that hot.

(I have been using the 15w50 supersyn, based on the persuasive power of this graph.)

 

[Patman]

 

[Ray Garlington]

Jason,
Have been thinking about this more:

+++ quote

From Bob ///M's Amsoil 0w30 -- The Great oil study

Did you know that our engines have temperatures in this range (F)?:

Upper Cylinder Wall 300-500
Exhaust Valve 1200-1500
Piston Crown 700-800
Hydraulic Valve Lifter 250-300
Crankcase 200-300
Top Piston Ring 300-650
Exhaust Gases 500-1000
Combustion Chamber 3000-5000
Coolant Jacket 165-230
Connecting Rod Bearings 200-375
Main Bearings 200-350

+++ end quote

If you look at parts the oil can get to:

Upper Cylinder Wall 300-500
Hydraulic Valve Lifter 250-300
Crankcase 200-300
Top Piston Ring 300-650
Connecting Rod Bearings 200-375
Main Bearings 200-350

and notice from the TGV plot that burn off starts around 400 you are left with the following components that run at that temp:

Upper Cylinder Wall 300-500
Top Piston Ring 300-650

So according to the way I read the chart, if these parts are at the low end of the scale, 300F (148C) all these oils are ok. If these parts run at 400F (204C) the 5w-30 is going, closely followed by the 0w-30, then (about 10C later) the 10w-30. Last but not least, about 15C later, the 15w-50 starts to go. So Jason, since you are running 10w-30, sounds like these components of your car are running at about 425F. Perhaps you should try the 15w-50.

 

[Dr. T]

My car even consumed the 15-50, so it WAS bye-bye M-1.

To me it looked like all grades of M-1 SS were made slightly "thicker" than the TS. But, what was the 15-50 made significantly thicker than the TS version and a greater increase than any other grades??

 

[buster]

quote:

---

From Bob ///M's Amsoil 0w30 -- The Great oil study

---

I would hardly call that a great study. Do you know much information on that web page is wrong? Dr. T, if your car was burning 15w-50, it's not the oil, it's your engine. Redline, Amsoil and Mobil 1 all have NOAK numbers in the range of 6-10%, some even a bit less.

 

[Jay]

I don't understand the TGA graphs. What does TGA stand for and how is the test conducted? Why do the graphs go up, peak at a certain temperature, them come down at higher temperatures? Mobil 1 SS 0w-30 is 20+times more volatile at 240*C than at 365*C?

 

[TooSlick]

Jay,

It's a "thermogravimetric analysis",which measures weight loss of a material as a function of both time and temp. What you are seeing is the percentage weight loss of volatile components of the oil as it's heated up in stages. By the time you get to the really elevated temps, most of the low molecular weight fractions have evaporated and you are just cooking the rest.

It's a more elaborate way of looking at thermal stability than something like the Noack test, where you heat to a single temp and hold it there for an hour. Different results for a particular brand of engine oil would indicate a change to either the basestock blend or additive chemistry or both ....

 

[oilyriser]

This is fascinating. Those scans look like the slopes of a distillation curve. A pure substance would have just one peak, while a mixture would show peaks according to the individual components.

The tri-synthetic has three peaks, probably from three components, hence the 'tri' in the name. The Supersyn has one big peak (except 15w50), and a small peak around 400, indicating the majority is a single boiling point, It looks like the 5w30 and 0w30 SS have the same single component, while the 10w30 has a higher boiling basestock. The 15w50 SS looks the same as the TS, so maybe it is similar to the old formula.

An oil made of one molecule type would have one peak.

There was something on the Shell website about why Shell was slow to use synthetic oils. It said that petroleum oils have components which boil at extremely high temperatures, so there would always be something left over, no matter how hot things got. Synthetic oils evaporate completely, leaving a dry surface above a certain temperature.

 

[Quick_lude]

Anyone have a graph for the 0w40 formulation?

 

[Jay]

Thanks for the explanation TooSlick. As far as performance in an engine is concerned, it seems to me that an oil's NOACK volatility would be an infinitely more useful thing to know than it's TGA profile.

 

[Drstressor]

A TGA is essentially the slope of the distillation curve. If the only components were PAO, the peaks of the TGA would reflect the molecular mass of each component. Interestingly the Supersyns all show a small peak at >400 degrees. Maybe this is the Supersyn component itself, which is rumored to be a high MW PAO. Nice approach. They use a lower viscosity base stock for each grade and still get good shear resistance and viscosity retention under HTHS conditions.

 

[Ray Garlington]

buster panned Bob ///M thusly:

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Bob ///M's Amsoil 0w30 -- The Great oil study
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would hardly call that a great study. Do you know much information on that web page is wrong?

---

OK. Bob probably made some mistakes. Are his engine temperature values incorrect? I tried to find another table somewhere, but was unable.

 

[Dr. T]

buster, I agree...the problem was with the engine...had stuck lifters from many thousands of miles of 7.5k mi intervals with BMW 5-30 synthetic. However, M-1 was consumed the most of any other brand used....including their 15-50....which was consumed more than some other brand's 5-40.

 

[buster]

quote:

---

Maybe this is the Supersyn component itself, which is rumored to be a high MW PAO. Nice approach. They use a lower viscosity base stock for each grade and still get good shear resistance and viscosity retention under HTHS conditions.

---

Can someone explain this a bit further? Not following it.

Dr. T, I beilieve it. I just thought you might have been one of those "Mobil 1 blew up my engine" guys.

 

[MolaKule]

Dr. T,

Was the consumption of the M1 before or after the BMW oil was used?

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

If you are refering to me, you are misunderstanding. I was saying the spun bearing likely could have been prevented with a different oil selection. YES the CAUSE was starvation, but there could have been a CURE ready to go into action...
Pretty simple actually. I think you are thinking too hard about it maybe...