So unsubstantiated claims made of M1 is going to result in deleted posts or threads, but unsubstantiated claims made of all other brands will result in no action? That sounds fair to me.
M1 15-50EP turbo failure, oil related?
- Thread starter Cujet
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So unsubstantiated claims made of M1 is going to result in deleted posts or threads, but unsubstantiated claims made of all other brands will result in no action? That sounds fair to me.
Wow, I had no idea my comment was so controversial. My apologies.
JHZR2
Staff member
This place is no democracy. Its not trying to sell anything, and does not make money. All of us here do this for free to try and make the board a better place for learning and REAL, TECHNICAL discussion. So, while I agree that unsubstantiated claims about ANY motor oil is not fair or right, do understand that it is only the obvious flareups that get caught and reasonably acted upon in reasonable time. If you find others, then notify moderators that they are there. That's what the notify button is for.
We try to get everything we can, but cant get everything.
JMH
Quote from previous post: ""Hate to say it, but human error is significantly more a factor than most anything else... So while it may not actually be the case here, let's at least consider it.""
That is what I thought at first. I used caps and plugs when removing the turbo. I truly thought that something blocked the oil flow. By the way, the turbo feed line is fairly new and free flowing.
It is a water cooled turbo.
I built the turbo, and I am qualified to do so.
As I mentioned, the oil pressure was quite low and getting lower. The oil temp is out of control on my car. The reason I have not addressed that issue is that red cap M1 was a viable solution.
I continue to believe that the M1 EP is not as good as the red cap M1. This is what led me to conclude that the lack of sufficient oil pressure (due to lack of high temp viscosity)(less flow to turbo?) resulted in turbo bearing failure. By the way, I was seeing about 27PSI at 8000 RPM. Fresh M1 15-50EP brings it back up to 50PSI at 3000RPM and above for about 1500-2000 miles.
Fuel dilution is not a problem.
Chris
That is what I thought at first. I used caps and plugs when removing the turbo. I truly thought that something blocked the oil flow. By the way, the turbo feed line is fairly new and free flowing.
It is a water cooled turbo.
I built the turbo, and I am qualified to do so.
As I mentioned, the oil pressure was quite low and getting lower. The oil temp is out of control on my car. The reason I have not addressed that issue is that red cap M1 was a viable solution.
I continue to believe that the M1 EP is not as good as the red cap M1. This is what led me to conclude that the lack of sufficient oil pressure (due to lack of high temp viscosity)(less flow to turbo?) resulted in turbo bearing failure. By the way, I was seeing about 27PSI at 8000 RPM. Fresh M1 15-50EP brings it back up to 50PSI at 3000RPM and above for about 1500-2000 miles.
Fuel dilution is not a problem.
Chris
I have also had some problems with on-track oil pressure in my 1972 Alfa Romeo GTV since the EP formulation 15W50 came out. This is not a race car but a street car with some light prep work that runs track days (just for fun) 1-2 times per year. It sees high RPM shifts for 20 minute sessions and in the past oil pressure has not been a problem, but lately has been a little lower than I'm comfortable at the end of a session.
The is nowhere near the stresses placed on the oil that a forced induction Miata sees, but another data point nonetheless.
This has also coincided with a small amount of oil usage, which I never saw with the older 15W50 formulations.
Joe
The is nowhere near the stresses placed on the oil that a forced induction Miata sees, but another data point nonetheless.
This has also coincided with a small amount of oil usage, which I never saw with the older 15W50 formulations.
Joe
Wouldn't a 15w-40 diesel oil be a good one to use in this application? Turbo's generally go 500K+ miles in trucks using Rotella, Delo and Delvac.
JHZR2
Staff member
15w-40 oils are very shear stable, but they may be prone to small levels of coking at the super-hot bearing surfaces when the turbos are at high levels of boost for extended periods of time. HD trucks see steady states for 99.9% of the time, and so he spooled turbo time at near max boost is quite low.
Syn oils allow better control of the 'light ends' that would either volitilize or do other screwey things. This leads to better thermal stability.
Due to driving style, auto turbos dont typically go to 500k+ (other than MB diesels, few engines ever routinely see 500k miles of use), and Id guess that the data is quite limited.
All of that said, for most users, a 15w-40 oil would be a decent first shot in a really souped up, power dense engine. The OP here claimed himself that oil temperatures are way out of control, and so one needs as high a viscosity (stable) as can be had, to get the viscosity at the bearings to be correct for hydrodynamic lubrication, given the oil temperature.
For this case, it may actually lead towards a straight 60 or higher race oil, thugh IMO a cooler would be the first bet.
As for the OP - is your radiator still OE??? Could you plumb via the filter mount or otherwise a plumb to take the oil into a swapped-in AT-spec radator, which has the water to oil cooler? That should ne as space and weight neutral a swap as I could imagine, and hopefully yield a decent bit of cooling.
Best,
JMH
Syn oils allow better control of the 'light ends' that would either volitilize or do other screwey things. This leads to better thermal stability.
Due to driving style, auto turbos dont typically go to 500k+ (other than MB diesels, few engines ever routinely see 500k miles of use), and Id guess that the data is quite limited.
All of that said, for most users, a 15w-40 oil would be a decent first shot in a really souped up, power dense engine. The OP here claimed himself that oil temperatures are way out of control, and so one needs as high a viscosity (stable) as can be had, to get the viscosity at the bearings to be correct for hydrodynamic lubrication, given the oil temperature.
For this case, it may actually lead towards a straight 60 or higher race oil, thugh IMO a cooler would be the first bet.
As for the OP - is your radiator still OE??? Could you plumb via the filter mount or otherwise a plumb to take the oil into a swapped-in AT-spec radator, which has the water to oil cooler? That should ne as space and weight neutral a swap as I could imagine, and hopefully yield a decent bit of cooling.
Best,
JMH
Well human error is possible no matter the qualifications of a person. If you can give me a bit more proof that you did absolutely everything correctly with the removal and reinstallation of the turbo (as well as the rebuild?) than I'd feel inclined to rule human error out. But than I feel the burden would go to mechanical error, which is also a good possibility. No matter how well built that turbo was, it's always possible it would go bad no matter the oil used. But as many have pointed out, Group III isn't an oil thats easy to thicken, and that it can shear at tremendous rates. I'd say it is very possible that lack of pressure MAY cause failure, but I don't believe M1 ever claimed their EP 15w-50 to be a "race oil". EP is advertised as Extended Performance, for long drains. That oil was formulated for max life in a easy to moderately driven car, not an oil thrashing turbo application. I'd say you should realize that the red top 15w-50 is long gone, but no one can rule out the new M1 15-50 (non-EP). But like a few have said, if you need superior oil film strength, go with a good racing oil thats a straight weight. Or just go back to what worked, Redline. If Redline was dependable and kept everything running smoothly than I'd say that'd be your best bet. I wouldn't even fool with anymore M1 products in that car seeing as it would be a waste to risk blowing another turbo.
I used M1 0W40 Trisyn about 3yrs ago for one OCI and my turbo just wore out. Must have been that M1 rubbish and not the 10 other different oils I used since the M1.
Glad to see just another amateur poster is now reveling in there new found powers as an admin. Good luck.
JHZR2
Staff member
Quote:
Glad to see just another amateur poster is now reveling in there new found powers as an admin. Good luck.
OK, so you've got it all figured out. Mr. "senior poster" who knows it all is just 100% right all the time, and knows how to run the board better than anyone, right?
Why not go start your own oil site and tell everyone what is exactly right? You obviously know it all.
Excuse me for admitting that the mods cannot be everywhere, and try to at least maintain overall civility by knocking out the biggest, most polar battles ASAP.
Sorry if me having 700 posts less than you because I work a job and am obtaining a technical PhD at the same time doesnt let me spend 100% of my time on the computer, and makes me an "amateur". And, for all your 'seniority' on the board, I was an admin previously.
Hopefully you can contribute nicely to the board without being a tool... we both know there are enough tools on here making incorrect claims and picking fights.
Is it too hard to ask that we all work together to make this place a nice and reasonable place for people with all levels of learning to get decent insight and hold real technical discussions???
I certainly hope not.
JMH
I would think that a reasonable request, if posts that are not counterproductive are not deleted. Just because someone disagrees with you, is not a reason for an administrator to delete posts, IMHO. My deleted post encouraged challenging one another’s findings and claims. It may have contained some small amount of sarcasm directed at the “Golden Child” of the oil industry, but certainly not directed toward any individual or any of our fine sponsors.
Proof that I built the turbo properly is only my word. Take it for what you will.
My resume includes work for world class race teams, starting back in the '70s. Plenty of turbo experience. Today, I just deal with Gulfstream 550 aircraft, EC-135 helicopters, Pilatus PC-12, Extra 300L's and DG gliders.
My diagnosis is a best guess. One other point, the turbo has an orifice in the oil inlet to prevent over oiling at idle, a common problem. Couple this fact with low oil pressure due to thin oil and the result is a failed hot side bearing.
Yup, I am starting to understand clearly that my beloved red cap is gone
Chris
My resume includes work for world class race teams, starting back in the '70s. Plenty of turbo experience. Today, I just deal with Gulfstream 550 aircraft, EC-135 helicopters, Pilatus PC-12, Extra 300L's and DG gliders.
My diagnosis is a best guess. One other point, the turbo has an orifice in the oil inlet to prevent over oiling at idle, a common problem. Couple this fact with low oil pressure due to thin oil and the result is a failed hot side bearing.
Yup, I am starting to understand clearly that my beloved red cap is gone
Chris
JHZR2
Staff member
Fair enough... though off the top of my head (just got back from a wedding
Best,
JMH
JHZR2
Staff member
Cujet, whatever the cause, this is a most interesting case... Please inform us as to what will happen next -I assume youll be strapping a new turbo on, right? Any precautions? A new oil cooler perhaps? Will you be doing a UOA of yout M1 oil??? what oil do you plan to go with next and why?
On technical merit, hopefully we can all come to a consensus of what to use next, regardless of if M1 is actually GrpIII or not, and regardless of anyting else, just relying on the fact that you ar elooking for ultimate performance and protection.
I'd venture to guess that one of the redline oils, or perhaps an amsoil product would be the next smart choice - any insight??? are you scared of going with, say, straight 50wt redline???
JMH
On technical merit, hopefully we can all come to a consensus of what to use next, regardless of if M1 is actually GrpIII or not, and regardless of anyting else, just relying on the fact that you ar elooking for ultimate performance and protection.
I'd venture to guess that one of the redline oils, or perhaps an amsoil product would be the next smart choice - any insight??? are you scared of going with, say, straight 50wt redline???
JMH
JHZR2 in all due respect you used the word "tool" to identify certain posters. I would guess that everyone reading that wonders if you're talking about them. I try to point out some of the absolute stupidity that's posted here. Does that make me a "tool" by your definiton? When I first joined people like Terry, Molakule and a few other real experts answered questions. Now you have newbies like Merkava (who I'm 99% sure was previously banned under the name Goldenrod) and Dino No,and 06Vtec(sp?) and ewtho and coffee and others that are constantly giving "recomendations" and "advice" that have no training or experience and quite simply aren't qualified to give such important opinions in regards to auto maintenance. They simply want to make people think they are "experts" and want to get their post counts up so it looks like they are in the know. I fully expect this post to be deleted but I'm trying to be honest. This board has gone down the tubes with people who really aren't qualified telling others how to maintain their cars.427Z06 may come off as a know it all and I don't always agree with him but I do believe he's done the research as is being honest.Unlike so many of the newbies that just want to be part of the gang. And when you use the term "tools" without naming names and banning the offenders that doesn't help.I may be on the banished list but if so at least I tried to be honest.
FF1:
I'm not going to delete your post, but I may just go ahead and change your username to "JoeFriday".
I'm not going to delete your post, but I may just go ahead and change your username to "JoeFriday".
One other point. A new member by the name of Woodkyak recentl posted a question and specifically and clearly asked for experts to respond. Several posters took it upon themselves to appoint themselves as "experts" and responded telling him to go against the factory recomended grade.Is this acceptable for people that are clearly not "experts" to pretend they are?
blade contacted housing?
Could the ignition have gotten retarted at some point, and exhaust temperatures exceeded safe limits. knock sensor?
Could the ignition have gotten retarted at some point, and exhaust temperatures exceeded safe limits. knock sensor?
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