M1-102 - Anti Drain Valve failure?

[sunruh]

for months i have had start up knock/clatter on my 05 tacoma and had no idea what the issue was.

well, saturday i think i found out. and i was not happy with what i found.

i had the motor hot and then parked it for the long drain of an oil change.

when i went to take the M1-102 off, you have to be fast as the filter is upside down and even though there is a catch cup it still gets messy. so i spun it off fast, flipped it over and ........ nothing. no oil at all.
after 3 hours of sitting there was zero oil in the filter.
now, when i use the pure one 10241 or supertech st3600 i have oil in the filter when i do the change and i always do it the same way. so i went back in the garage with the new m1-102 in hand and found (thankfully) another st3600 i had on the shelf and put in on instead.

guess what?

not a single rattle on startup this morning after sitting 16hrs.

so now i have 2 m1-102 filters on the shelf that are brand new. they may end up staying that way forever!

 

[tig1]

No filter is immune from a failure. I have never had a failure with M1 filters and I have used a lot of them, but it can happen as is your case. Irronically the only filter that this happened to me was in a 99 F150 4.2 with a Super Tech. We had made a trip to Florida and all was well, but after being there a few days I started getting a cold start rattle. When I got back I put a MC filter on and the rattle went away.

 

[motts]

Had the same problem with this same filter on my '02 Camry, (tried 2 of them). Had the same startup rattle with K&N and Royal Purple filters. No problems with P1 , Bosch DP and Baldwin>

 

[daman]

M1 uses a silicone ADBV so very strange it lost ALL the oil in the filter like tig said I've used them before and no issues, could have found one that slipped through QC...how did the filter look open it up?

call champ labs and complain.

 

[Radman]

Originally Posted By: sunruh
when i use the pure one 10241 or supertech st3600 i have oil in the filter when i do the change and i always do it the same way. so i went back in the garage with the new m1-102 in hand and found (thankfully) another st3600 i had on the shelf and put in on instead.


Mobil 1 & Supertech are both Champ made. You may have just been the lucky lottery winner of a bad filter.

 

[Artem]

I saw you try to fight this thing and see if you can get a lifetime of M1 filters for the engine "damage" it caused.

 

[OVERKILL]

Did you try pressing back the ADBV and see if oil comes out?

Normally, when I pull the FL-820S off the truck, very little oil comes out.

Then, I take it to the basement, stick a nail in between the ADBV and the sealing surface, and turn it back over on top of a mason jar. The result is a good 1/2L+ of oil that comes out of the filter.

 

[sunruh]

it went in the trash and is gone.

when the filter came off it looked like no oil had ever been in it. completely dry.

 

[Pete C.]

You people do understand what the primary function of an anti-drainback valve is don't you?

It is to prevent the sudden backflow of oil over the media after shut down. This is to prevent washing trapped junk from returing to the oil stream. A secondary, and bonus, is it MIGHT hold the column of oil up, preventing lifters etc. from draining back. Oil will still backwash through the media if conditions are right.

 

[Pete C.]

Originally Posted By: sunruh
it went in the trash and is gone.

when the filter came off it looked like no oil had ever been in it. completely dry.


I hope you mean that the oil had drained from the filter. Not that oil had never passed through the filter. If the filter was truly dry, as in no oil at all, you have bigger problems than a supposed "faulty" ADV.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I've had good luck with the ADBV on OEM Toyota and PureOne filters used in horizontal and base down vertical locations. I've let the vehicle sit for a week, and never get cold start-up noises. Filter is always full of oil when removed.

But yeah, sure ... any filter brand can have a bad run here and there.

 

[river_rat]

When you are bored, go blow a little air into all the new Mobil 1 filters' center holes and I'll bet they all leak with a hiss. Hardly ever find them on the shelf that don't. Yours is the umteenth complaint I've heard about start-up rattle with Mobil 1 and the K&N (sister) oil filters.

Oh yeah, them blow into the brands you almost never hear this problem with like Purolator or Wix, and draw your own conclusions.

Toyota was retarded putting the filter upside down on the Tacoma V-6 anyway, IMO.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
Toyota was retarded putting the filter upside down on the Tacoma V-6 anyway, IMO.


Could be ... but it's really easy to get to. Personally, I haven't had any problems or concerns about the filter being base down.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Pete C.
You people do understand what the primary function of an anti-drainback valve is don't you?

It is to prevent the sudden backflow of oil over the media after shut down. This is to prevent washing trapped junk from returing to the oil stream. A secondary, and bonus, is it MIGHT hold the column of oil up, preventing lifters etc. from draining back. Oil will still backwash through the media if conditions are right.

Pete ..you can recite that a million times and no one wants to hear it. That's why NO manufacturer, foreign or domestic, PROHIBITS the use of a filter with a nitrile ADBV. All filters (assumed that they're actually made by the man on the label) meet ALL OEM spec's and are suitable for use.

Filters empty all the time in some engines ..never in others. Even those using filters with nitrile ADBV's.

All the ADBV has to do is hold for xx amount of time to slow the back flow.

"Well, it that's true, what happens after 3000 miles and it starts to rattle? It must be allowing a gusher to backflow, right?"

No Einstein. The nitrile ADBV is pliable when HOT and distorts was it gets rigid again when cooled. You do notice that the rattle doesn't happen when the engine is started after the initial start of the day, don't you? No rattle, right? I guess that would tell most reasoning folk that it takes a good long time to drain back now, wouldn't it?

"But ..Ford spec's things like the FL820S. They put it on there for a reason, right?"

Yes, my keen fellow ..one sharp tool in the shed you are, I'll tell you. But have you seen a filter that doesn't have a silicon ADBV showing that it meets and/or exceeds OEM spec's? ..and do some of these come in the aforementioned size and part number for those applications? Sure you have. Have you ever seen a memo or TSB ..or any official FORD document saying that use of such filter will void your warranty? Sure you haven't.

"Then why do they spec it if it's not necessary?"

Oh, wise one, to reduce customer complaints while under warranty.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Pete C.
You people do understand what the primary function of an anti-drainback valve is don't you?

It is to prevent the sudden backflow of oil over the media after shut down. This is to prevent washing trapped junk from returing to the oil stream. A secondary, and bonus, is it MIGHT hold the column of oil up, preventing lifters etc. from draining back. Oil will still backwash through the media if conditions are right.


I second this. Very astute comment.

Take any filter you like and put reverse pressure against it's valve with HOT oil. It will leak at least a little.

 

[Pete C.]

9,999,959 More to go !

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
You people do understand what the primary function of an anti-drainback valve is don't you?

It is to prevent the sudden backflow of oil over the media after shut down. This is to prevent washing trapped junk from returing to the oil stream. A secondary, and bonus, is it MIGHT hold the column of oil up, preventing lifters etc. from draining back. Oil will still backwash through the media if conditions are right.

Very interesting. If I'm interpreting you correctly, you are basically saying what the minimopar filter study has advanced as the major reason for an adbv, and why silicone is advantageous to nitrile, especially over the long term. The author in the mm filter study obtained much of his information regarding adbv's from Mark Lawrence, author of a motorcycle filter study. He also says, (paraphrasing) that oil draining back from the inlet/dirty side of the filter would/could be harmful to the engine, thus the need for an adbv.

The reason I find your comment interesting, especially here, is because one long time respected poster has frequently taken exception to that part of the study here (even recently), and railed against Mr Lawrence's conclusion (cited in the minimopar study) of the purpose of the adbv. The poster has basically said, (paraphrase) what's the difference whether unfiltered oil from the inlet side of the filter flows back some to the sump? The thought being, based on the posted comments, that the oil in both areas is unfiltered so why would it matter? So, perhaps Mr Lawrence's conclusion/reasoning in the mm study is not so far off base after all, as the reason for an adbv.

All that said, based on what I've read here, I've thought that the major reason for an adbv was to help prevent dry start. Either way or both, good reasons to have a functioning quality adbv.

 

[goodtimes]

Maybe I am missing something, but there is a path for the oil to drain away through the media. Most of the oil. Threads down position as the OP said this was. I had a Nissan with a long standpipe for the filter to go over to prevent this.

If the adbv is there, it should work. In an M1 newish premium filter like this. Need to qualify every statement around here, or it will be picked apart.

There was a thread awhile ago where the adbv was missing, Delco made by Champ filter. With the closed slits centertubes issue and rattling ST's also talked about, I'm thinking their QC is slipping lately.

I'm using the 2 I got at AZ sale, anyway, and will not worry, looked them over all parts there, no rattles, no closed slits, have holes. One will go on a Toyota 1mz v6 so will see if it suddenly has more start up noise. Never seen any difference on filters for that engine before, used about all kinds.

 

[Pete C.]

Quote:
All that said, based on what I've read here, I've thought that the major reason for an adbv was to help prevent dry start. Either way or both, good reasons to have a functioning quality adbv.


The minimopar study is nothing to me, but some guy that tore apart a bunch of filters and used his 4th hand internet knowledge to make claims. Where is/are his lab tests, flow benches and the rest of the millions of dollars of test equipment he used to do this "study"?

The main reason for an ADV is to prevent the SUDDEN back flow of oil, Not hold oil up in the galleries. When you shut down a hot engine, the oil in the galleries wants to find the same level as the oil sump. The easiest path for it to do that, in most cases, is through the oil filter element. The adv slows this reverse flow. The sudden backwash can possibly dislodge harmful contaminates from the element where they most likley will settle out to the lowest portion of the filter. Next morning you go out and start your cold engine, opening the BPV and whoosh, there goes those debris, straight to the bearings and every where else. If the oil column slowly seeks a common level through the media there is a much smaller chance of this happening.

That's pretty much as it was described to me by my current employer 30 odd years ago, and I haven't heard a different reason since.

Nitrile ADV are good for 3-5K OCI's. Silicon for up to 10-15 k miles If you run a nitrile ADV to 6-12 k miles don't expect to much.

I'll give Ya'll a hint, type my location into Google.

 

[Pete C.]

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