M1 0w40-how is this possible?

Patman · Mar 18, 2003

In looking closely at the specs for 0w40 Mobil 1 in comparison to their 5w30, I wonder how it's even possible for them to create this oil.

Their 0w40 is considerably thicker at 40c, it's 80.3cst vs 53.7 for the 5w30. So if it's that much thicker at 40c, how can it flow so much better at cold temps to be a 0w oil? Is the base oil that radically different, and if so, how? Or is it all done with pour point depressants?

G-MAN · Mar 19, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Patman:
In looking closely at the specs for 0w40 Mobil 1 in comparison to their 5w30, I wonder how it's even possible for them to create this oil.

Their 0w40 is considerably thicker at 40c, it's 80.3cst vs 53.7 for the 5w30. So if it's that much thicker at 40c, how can it flow so much better at cold temps to be a 0w oil? Is the base oil that radically different, and if so, how? Or is it all done with pour point depressants?

It's not done with PPDs, since PAOs and esters don't respond to PPDs. I'd say it's primarily the high natural viscosity index of the base oil blend. What you've got with these oils is an extremely thermally stable base oil blend, one that has excellent low temp flow characteristics, but doesn't thin out at high temps. Remember, a high VI means a high resistence to change in viscosity with temp change. This translates into a base oil blend that doesn't thicken up in cold temps and doesn't thin out in high temps.

TooSlick · Mar 19, 2003

Patman,

If you plot oil viscosity as a function of temp, you get a curve and not a straight line. In mathematical terms, the viscosity/temp relationship is nonlinear. The curve for the 0w-40 is such that it flows a bit better in very low temps than does the 5w-30. The viscosity index defines the general shape of this curve, but only for a limited temp range. You can't simply plot the viscosity @ 40C and the viscosity @ 100C, draw a line through it and extrapolate the data down to -25C.

If you start to factor in high shear rates, things get even more interesting, since you are then dealing with polymeric effects.

Suffice it to say it's sort of complicated

TooSlick

buster · Mar 19, 2003

I find this particular visc. strange. Mobil claims to make the most common and applicable viscosities but a 0w-40 is just too much of a spread IMO. 0w is the future of oils, but why this weight is so popular in Europe surprises me. I'd rather run a 0w-30 in winter and 10w-40 in summer. I wish Mobil made a 10w-40, as it would most likely stay in grade.

Al · Mar 19, 2003

I seem to recall a discussion on this before in another thread. MolaKule I believe was indication that it was one of their magic new PAO/Esters (I believe) Hope I am not halucinating

Jay · Mar 19, 2003

As TooSlick mentioned, the plot of viscosity vs temperature is a curve, but you can plot it as a straight line if the vertical scale of the graph is non-linear in such a way to accomodate the curve. ASTM has such charts to make it easy to plot temp vs. kinematic viscosity with straight lines. If you look at M1 0w-40 vs M1 10w-30 you can see that the two lines converge at about -8*C, i.e. they have the same viscosity at that temperature. At temps below that the 0w-40 is thinner.

I've mentioned this before, but Mobil will send you a chart if you ask for VTA018A.pdf or PM me and I'll send it to you. It's a fairly big file.

[ March 19, 2003, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Jay ]

sprintman · Mar 19, 2003

Mobils best gas oil. Dunno how they make it but when we Timkened it (TS version) it blew away everthing my oilnut mate Ron had ever seen (by a fair margin too). He flies around Oz with his Timken in his Ultralight doing oil demo's etc so he's seen a few oils in his time. Looked like water, sure didn't perform like it though!!

Quattro Pete · Mar 19, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by buster:
I find this particular visc. strange. Mobil claims to make the most common and applicable viscosities but a 0w-40 is just too much of a spread IMO. 0w is the future of oils, but why this weight is so popular in Europe surprises me. I'd rather run a 0w-30 in winter and 10w-40 in summer. I wish Mobil made a 10w-40, as it would most likely stay in grade.

Mobil's "European Formula" is just a marketing slogan for the 0w-40 oil sold in the US. From what I know, very few people run this oil grade in Europe. There is a 5w-50 Mobil oil that I know many people over there use. Castrol also sells a 10w-60 oil there - another popular one. So, as you can see, the viscosity spread out there is even higher than what we're used to here in North America.

G-MAN · Mar 19, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Quattro Pete:

Mobil's "European Formula" is just a marketing slogan for the 0w-40 oil sold in the US. From what I know, very few people run this oil grade in Europe.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

This is not just a marketing slogan. Mobil 1 0w40 comes as factory fill in every Mercedes AMG model, every Porsche, and every Aston Martin. In addition, it is the only oil currently made by anyone that carries the most severe performance ratings from both the US (API) and Europe (ACEA). It also meets the toughest OEM oil spec, Mercedes Benz's 229.5. This is very much a "European Formula."

If you check out the major European oil web sites, you'll see that they all feature 0w40 as their "premier" oils. Castrol makes their Formula RS in 0w40. Shell now sells their Helix Ultra in 0w40. Motul's top-of-the-line oil is 0w40.

Patman · Mar 19, 2003

I realize that an oil's viscosity is not a straight line, and many oils with the same viscosity at 40c will be different at lower temps.

I guess I'm just wondering how Mobil 1 creates their 0w40. They don't charge a lot more $$$ for it, so it's hard to imagine their base oil could be so much better in the 0w40.

unDummy · Mar 19, 2003

Mobil1: 10w40
http://www.mobil1.com/motorcycle/index.jsp

With min's/max's/'s/.... it is easy to see why some oils can have such a spread---not that there is much relationship between the 1st and 2nd number in the pseudo(simplified for the consumer) numbering system the oil bottle has.

http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/NewOronite/library/li_viscosity_motoroil.htm

G-MAN · Mar 19, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Patman:
I guess I'm just wondering how Mobil 1 creates their 0w40. They don't charge a lot more $$$ for it, so it's hard to imagine their base oil could be so much better in the 0w40.

As I've said before, I suspect that Mobil has decided to keep the price point of the 0wXX oils in line with the other grades even though they are more expensive to make. This lowers their profit margin on those oils, but it increases the chances that people will purchase these "new" grades and use them.

JB · Mar 19, 2003

The Mobil 1 0W-40 in this thread... is it the TriSyn or SuperSyn version?

G-MAN · Mar 19, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by JB:
The Mobil 1 0W-40 in this thread... is it the TriSyn or SuperSyn version?

Since TriSyn is no longer available, I assume we're talking about SuperSyn.

Patman · Mar 19, 2003

Yes, the specs I was quoting at the beginning of this thread are for the new SuperSyn. I'm not sure how the TriSyn specs compared between the two.

jjbula · Mar 19, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by sprintman:
He flies around Oz with his Timken in his Ultralight doing oil demo's etc so he's seen a few oils in his time. Looked like water, sure didn't perform like it though!!

Why do I have an image of Mel Gibson's Mad Max in my head. Do you remember the one with the ultra light pilot? Probably because I've never been to Oz.

On a serious note, I would love to take a vacation down there. I hear it is a great place. I'll need a steady job first, though.

[ March 20, 2003, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: jjbula ]

jjbula · Mar 19, 2003

Patman,

This is a good topic. From analysis we have seen that the higher VII content of 0w40 is not contributing to wear or sludge. Perhaps some shearing is present but, overall, 0w40 looks pretty stable. With occasional use of lube control, auto-rx, or neutra there shouldn't be a nasty accumulation of sheared VII's. I wish we could find out what type of VII's the different brands are using.

Cheers,

JJ

Eiron · Mar 19, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by buster:
I find this particular visc. strange. Mobil claims to make the most common and applicable viscosities but a 0w-40 is just too much of a spread IMO. 0w is the future of oils, but why this weight is so popular in Europe surprises me. I'd rather run a 0w-30 in winter and 10w-40 in summer. I wish Mobil made a 10w-40, as it would most likely stay in grade.

Until recently, I think most of the European syns starterd around 5W & went up to whatever "hot" weight they wanted. Now, 0Ws are becoming more common there as well, as oil technology improves. As mentioned in other threads, 10W-40 has a very bad reputation here in the US. I'm sure that's why Mobil (& others?) market their latest HDD oils as 15W-40, even though they meet the 10W specs. In N/A engines, I think any of Mobil's 40wts (M1, D1, & D1300S) will stay in grade.

sprintman · Mar 20, 2003

jjbula your welcome anytime. Can't wait to get SS version of M1 as we still have Trisyn only.

buster · Mar 20, 2003

Greg, I'm not so sure 0w-40 will stay in grade. It seems to be thinning out to a 30wt., which is understandable being a 0w-40. But Mobil's 30wt.'s are notorious for thinning down to 20wt.s, even SS.

M1 0w40-how is this possible?

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