M1 0w30 AFE lower oil temp?

[SR5]

Sounds like AFE has a higher level of friction modifiers (FM) than most oils. Be it in the organic or inorganic form.

I don't know if this is related, but the AFE has a high kinematic viscosity given it's HTHS viscosity, compared to regular M1 products. So it looks like different polymer VII treatment is used, either by type of VII or dose rate of VII. This could be associated with more thinner base stock being used in the AFE giving less frictional losses in the fluid, especially as the oil shears down a bit.

Regular M1 5W30, KV100 = 11.0 cSt, HTHS = 3.1 cP
Regular M1 10W30, KV100 = 10.1 cSt, HTHS = 3.0 cP
M1 0W30 AFE, KV100 = 10.9 cSt, HTHS = 3.0 cP

Shannow has linked to a few papers showing that a significant source of heat in the IC engine is due to frictional heating of oil in the bearings, not just chemical combustion in the cylinder.

To me a frictional saving should both increase fuel economy and reduce oil heat, so it sort of makes sense to me that a fuel economy oil is also a cool running oil.

I'm surprised that the 0W30 AFE is cooler than PP 0W20. A UOA of both would be nice, to look at their final viscosity.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
When I see the same engines in other countries that don't have Cafe go with lighter motor oils, I ll believe it. Until then I am going to believe the durability of the engines make the lightweight oil possible but not necessarily the best choice since I ve seen 15w40 perform perfectly well in below 0 weather in gas engines with my own eyes.

Yes, we don't have Cafe, but.... we have Coffee here!
All Toyota SC's here offers 5W40 and mineral 10W30.
... and their clients are cars < 5 yrs or 100,000 km warranty service .




Is Toyota Malaysia real dumb ?
... or Toyota States are smarts ??

Wait ......

 

[Coprolite]

Different fuels and different configurations of vehicles means different oils. I would be leery to assume that just because an oil is specced in one market for a vehicle that it is preferable over what is specced in another market. That is a good way to do damage. This particularly applies to SEAsia vs the US. Many engines over there are Euro III / IV, while the regulations here are much stricter. Fuel is very different and how engines handle this all is different.

All that being said, I want my Thai Hiluxes over here.

 

[RedOakRanch]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Sounds like AFE has a higher level of friction modifiers (FM) than most oils. Be it in the organic or inorganic form.

I don't know if this is related, but the AFE has a high kinematic viscosity given it's HTHS viscosity, compared to regular M1 products. So it looks like different polymer VII treatment is used, either by type of VII or dose rate of VII. This could be associated with more thinner base stock being used in the AFE giving less frictional losses in the fluid, especially as the oil shears down a bit.

Regular M1 5W30, KV100 = 11.0 cSt, HTHS = 3.1 cP
Regular M1 10W30, KV100 = 10.1 cSt, HTHS = 3.0 cP
M1 0W30 AFE, KV100 = 10.9 cSt, HTHS = 3.0 cP

Shannow has linked to a few papers showing that a significant source of heat in the IC engine is due to frictional heating of oil in the bearings, not just chemical combustion in the cylinder.

To me a frictional saving should both increase fuel economy and reduce oil heat, so it sort of makes sense to me that a fuel economy oil is also a cool running oil.

I'm surprised that the 0W30 AFE is cooler than PP 0W20. A UOA of both would be nice, to look at their final viscosity.



I will post the UOA on both eventually. I have the PP sitting in the little bottle on my work bench right now.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: RedOakRanch
Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly
Does Subaru still use real thermometer readings in their gauges? Most modern cars don't seem to do that any more.


The Subaru has a digital oil temp gauge in the infotainment screen. It makes my wife mad when I want to drive with the oil temp displayed and she wants to see what's playing on the stereo.


I haven't been in an Outback in some time...does your wife's car have two screens?
My Forester shows my engine parameters of my choice on a smaller upper screen that doubles as the backup camera display while a larger lower screen is used for music, the phone interface, GPS, and probably some other things I haven't learned about. The GPS is kind of lame, gets confused easily and the maps are on an SD card (!!!!), but I still use it a lot because it's so darned convenient.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman

What I have learned is most people will ignore any common sense, logic or real life experience and do Whatever that owners manual says and defend it with a Engineering specialist they do not know if is a young person just out of school or a veteran engineer.
With big companies taking the cheapest labor, I am going with newbies who count beans and say Hey, we can lower our fuel mileage by going with a lighter oil. When I see the same engines in other countries that don't have Cafe go with lighter motor oils, I ll believe it. Until then I am going to believe the durability of the engines make the lightweight oil possible but not necessarily the best choice since I ve seen 15w40 perform perfectly well in below 0 weather in gas engines with my own eyes.


Well siad, sir; well said.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
What I have learned is most people will ignore any common sense, logic or real life experience and do Whatever that owners manual says and defend it with a Engineering specialist they do not know if is a young person just out of school or a veteran engineer.
With big companies taking the cheapest labor, I am going with newbies who count beans and say Hey, we can lower our fuel mileage by going with a lighter oil. When I see the same engines in other countries that don't have Cafe go with lighter motor oils, I ll believe it. Until then I am going to believe the durability of the engines make the lightweight oil possible but not necessarily the best choice since I ve seen 15w40 perform perfectly well in below 0 weather in gas engines with my own eyes.

Well siad, sir; well said.

Well said maybe, but completely unsupported by any facts and as a result not "common sense" at all. Common sense is to follow the owner's manual.

Unfortunately that's the way it is in this discussion about thinner oils. People make all sorts of dire predictions and comments, none of which have proven to be true.

 

[SilverFusion2010]

No dire predictions, I just don't see the need to go to a 20wt when a 10w-30 has the same add pack and a thicker MFT

 

[RedOakRanch]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: RedOakRanch
Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly
Does Subaru still use real thermometer readings in their gauges? Most modern cars don't seem to do that any more.


The Subaru has a digital oil temp gauge in the infotainment screen. It makes my wife mad when I want to drive with the oil temp displayed and she wants to see what's playing on the stereo.


I haven't been in an Outback in some time...does your wife's car have two screens?
My Forester shows my engine parameters of my choice on a smaller upper screen that doubles as the backup camera display while a larger lower screen is used for music, the phone interface, GPS, and probably some other things I haven't learned about. The GPS is kind of lame, gets confused easily and the maps are on an SD card (!!!!), but I still use it a lot because it's so darned convenient.

My Outback has a single 7" infotainment screen and an adjustable in dash instrument area. Only the smaller Subaru's have the extra screen in the middle of the dash.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: Panzerman

What I have learned is most people will ignore any common sense, logic or real life experience and do Whatever that owners manual says and defend it with a Engineering specialist they do not know if is a young person just out of school or a veteran engineer.
With big companies taking the cheapest labor, I am going with newbies who count beans and say Hey, we can lower our fuel mileage by going with a lighter oil. When I see the same engines in other countries that don't have Cafe go with lighter motor oils, I ll believe it. Until then I am going to believe the durability of the engines make the lightweight oil possible but not necessarily the best choice since I ve seen 15w40 perform perfectly well in below 0 weather in gas engines with my own eyes.


Well siad, sir; well said.


I will disagree, and say he is way off on this. My experience and many others as well would disagree.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: Panzerman

What I have learned is most people will ignore any common sense, logic or real life experience and do Whatever that owners manual says and defend it with a Engineering specialist they do not know if is a young person just out of school or a veteran engineer.
With big companies taking the cheapest labor, I am going with newbies who count beans and say Hey, we can lower our fuel mileage by going with a lighter oil. When I see the same engines in other countries that don't have Cafe go with lighter motor oils, I ll believe it. Until then I am going to believe the durability of the engines make the lightweight oil possible but not necessarily the best choice since I ve seen 15w40 perform perfectly well in below 0 weather in gas engines with my own eyes.


Well siad, sir; well said.


I will disagree, and say he is way off on this. My experience and many others as well would disagree.

However I agree ....... more so under circumstances of low speed, high load and high temperature operating requirements ...... for which the engines are designed for.