M-1 0w40 and RL 10w40...moded 396 LT1

[carl97ss]

I hesitated to place my oil analysis on this motor because of a ring problem but i thought some might be intersted. Terry, feel free to comment if you like.
car is '97 Camaro SS w/ modded LT1 bored and stroked to 396 c.i. engine dynoed 485 hp and is a daily driver. 60/40 hiway to city driving. oil consumption was 1 qt. every 700 miles.

I used walmart oil filter w/ Redline and a Hard Driver filter w/ the Mobil 1 oil...
Dyson Analysis

Customer Name : Capria
Oil Brand/Weight : M1 0w-40 / RL 10w-40
Type Equipment : Camaro
Miles/Hours on oil : 3670 / 2635
Total Miles/Hours : 21000 / 17400

Results ppm/% Comments (blank=normal)
Wear M1 / RL

Copper 08 / 11
Iron 42 / 40 wear from thicker oils
Chrome 10 / 08
Lead 08 / 19 RL add
Aluminum 04 / 05
Silicon 14 / 20 difference is,RL add
Tin 02 / 04

Additives
Molybdenum 91 / 458
Sodium 12 / 14
Magnesium 02 / 04
Zinc 791 / 1100
Potassium 0 / 13 RL add
Phosphorus 662 / 956
Calcium 2320 / 2120

Physical Properties
Water negative
Fuel negative detection scale neg,trace ,pos
Antifreeze negative
Soot 13 / 18 some solids,condensation suspected
Oxidation 49 / 117 scale 0-199 24.5%/58.5 RL cleaning
Nitration 62 / 63 scale 0-199 both 31% normal for this beast in
winter
Sulfur 44 / 211 RL spiking FTIR,normal fuel sulfur
TBN 9 / 4 normal M1, reran RL and it is 4
Vis@100 C 14.8/14.6 both 40w

Final Comments : Iron wear climbing based on vis of oil used, all other wear
values normal.
Lead and copper increase are normal RL signature. Amazingly the thicker
40w 50w oils raise the iron
wear, best was Pennz 10w-30. Have no idea why RL dropped from 10 to 13 TBN
to 4.

 

[Patman]

I would've thought your engine would've liked the thicker oil, was it not built with looser clearances?

It's good to see the 0w40 didn't thin out!

 

[Giles]

I don't understand why the thicker oil would be the significant contributing factor to the iron wear. Can someone please explain this since many analysis come back just fine with thicker oil, old and new engines alike. I would think this is more an indication of the engine characteristics than the oil characteristics. Just my 0w opinion.

 

[mdv]

Wow, considering you replaced nearly all the oil due to consumption, I wouldn't be very happy with those results. What ring problem do you have??

Thanks for posting it, it was interesting to look at to say the least.

Patman, it seems to me like the oil didn't thin out because it basically had an oil change due to consumption.

[ January 28, 2003, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: mdv ]

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdv:
Wow, considering you replaced nearly all the oil due to consumption, I wouldn't be very happy with those results. What ring problem do you have??

Thanks for posting it, it was interesting to look at to say the least.

Patman, it seems to me like the oil didn't thin out because it basically had an oil change due to consumption.

---

That's true! I hadn't noticed that consumption factor before!

 

[porterdog]

quote:

---

Originally posted by carl97ss:
Iron 42 / 40 wear from thicker oils

---

Someone please explain this! I've not seen it in the other UOA's I looked at nor have I heard it mentioned before. There was a "What's the affect of thick oil" thread recently and this was never mentioned either; what gives?

TIA,
Robert

 

[mdv]

quote:

---

Originally posted by porterdog:

quote:

---

Originally posted by carl97ss:
Iron 42 / 40 wear from thicker oils

---

Someone please explain this! I've not seen it in the other UOA's I looked at nor have I heard it mentioned before. There was a "What's the affect of thick oil" thread recently and this was never mentioned either; what gives?

TIA,
Robert

---

Beats me

I was hoping Terry could explain it, since it's his interpretation.

 

[porterdog]

quote:

---

Originally posted by carl97ss:
...SPR forged pistons...

---

Mebbe _that's_ the explaination. Forged pistons ofter require a looser setup, and a looser setup may use up the bore faster. Doesn't explain why Terry blamed the oil weight though...

R

 

[VaderSS]

They require a looser setup because they expand more. Once they are warmed up, there should be no slap. I would not expect the wear to be that much greater from there use.

 

[carl97ss]

Engine is overall tight. this is simpley a ring problem. However, this enngine has what i consider ALOT of piston slap. The 396 small block creates a good deal of "sucking" on the down stroke and we believe oil is getting by the rings. JE rings w/ SPR forged pistols. My engime builder is trying a simular ring to the GM LS1 replacement rings, on simular engines as mine to see if that helps.

 

[Chris A]

Carl, are you currently adding anything to keep your cc's clean from those oil deposits?

I'm curious as I also have a relatively new (16k mi) engine that burns about the same oil. One day, I'll probably tear it down but I've decided to live with it for now.

 

[carl97ss]

I find that if i get on it once and awhile, all sorts of black, blue/gray smoke comes out. then if i get on it shortly there after, no smoke that i can see. I have the problem in 5 of the cyliders. I'll pull the plug in one of the easy to get to cylinders (#7)to look at and during normal driving they clean themselves very well. I run a little hotter plug than spec and i get no oil fowling at all. i do use fuel system cleaners from time to time. I like STP Complete fuel system cleaner (silver plastic bottle) and Pennsoil Regane. I also use a national brand of gas...Shell in my case. For as much oil as the car uses, I'm very surprised how well the sparkplugs look and how well the car starts and runs.

 

[buster]

This was a case where RL's TBN dropped significantly, probably from cleaning (oxidation)

[ July 11, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Idrinkmotoroil]

I'm suprised no one mentioned the higher lead number, I think there is a significant difference in comparing the two oils. Its strange that it is listed as a Redline additive as no lead shows up in virgin analysis'. I dont regard this as a very good Redline analysis, I think the Mobil1 is showing up better.

 

[Michael SR]

a couple of comments...

the SRP pistons use a different alloy that the usual race pistons, including JE's own brand. the SRPs can be set up tightly, and shouldn't really have much slap. if they mistakingly set them up loose, like .004" or bigger, this might be contributing to your sealings problems.

however, bad rings/seal should be contributing to fuel dilution in the oil, of which there is none. because the poor seal doesn't always go in the same direction.

have you tried taking the top plate off your TB to see if there's any oil being sucked through from the valve cover? or maybe through the pcv system? just a thought.

was that power on an engine dyno? or through some conversion factor from a dynojet? what are the cam specs?

thanks.

-michael

 

[carl97ss]

Interesting to see this post come to the top. Michael; rings were set at .0035" and the cam is a Crane Cams #109831...222/230, .542int./ .563 ext. w/ 1.6RR, 112 LSA.. the dyno numbers are from an engine dyno...Superflow? On a Dynojet it did 390 rwhp.@5500 rpms..410 rwtq. @3900rpms as I recall.

The high Iron numbers were evidently valid. My engine builder rebuilt the motor in April '03. What he found was the cam lobes were worn noticibly. We also had bluing of some of the roller rocker tips. 29,000 on the rebuilt motor. After the rebuild, using piston rings that are Z06 style but, alledgely set at small block tension (what ever that means...no specific number given). I have a cryogenicly treated engine block if that means anything. I still have oil comsumption problems after the rebuild. No appreciable oil getting into the intake via PCV (I placed a see thru gas filter in line...3 tablespoons collect over the last 2500 miles) and nothing coming up into the TB via the valve cover. However, when i take off the throttlebody, I will have a small amount of oil dripping down the back of the throttle plates! I do have oil in the intake, more than normal for an LT1, but have no idea how it is getting in there. No smoke on start up in the mornings. I have smoke when accelerating hard and sometimes when off throttle high rpm coast down. I run Autotap and and I have no vacuum leaks. No misfires. 17-18 PSI vacuum at 875 rpm idle. Engine runs great other than the oil issue. 26 mpg at 75 mph, 18-20mpg to and from work. I definately use less oil with the heavier weights.

 

[Michael SR]

i didn't even notice the dates on this thread!

ya, the oil in the intake i think is telling you the consumption isn't from the ring seal. if you're certain no oil is getting in from the side port on the TB or the PCV system, then that leaves the valve seals on the intake valves. with a big cam there will be some reversion at certain rpm, throwing any oil getting past the seals back into the intake. i've seen that before.

but, since you said there's oil on the TB blades, that sounds suspisciously like it's coming in through the side port. maybe try putting a filter on that line instead of the pcv line?

do you know what valve seals are on those heads? what length valves? because with enough lift and a certain valve/seal combination, the retainers literally hit the seals, and they'll eventually leak quite a lot.

-michael

 

[69 Riv GS]

*Just some thoughts on the blow-by/oil consumption issue...

Carl, With piston slap at operating temp; the bore clearance is on the loose side. Since the pistons are eccentric it's critical that they're measured in the proper place when setting this clearance; each manufacturer has a specific location. JEs' is .500 inch above bottom of skirt.

Loose clearance, coupled with a short rod to stoke ratio and no offset on the wrist pin location could cause the piston to "rock" in its' bore. Although unlikely, it can cause poor ring seal because the rings are no longer "square" to the cylinder wall.

In your case, I don't see this as being a big problem though, because the HP and vacuum numbers are VERY good!

However, it could be a small contributing factor to a minor ring sealing issue that's causing problems INDIRECTLY; I'll explain later...

Oil control problems DIRECTLY related to the rings usally stem from; wide end gaps and/or light-tension and/or the wrong cylinder wall surface finish. But, usally with these issues you'll notice a VERY consistent pattern; ie every time under sudden acceleration, and/or every time above a certain RPM there's blow-by.

Every engine has a certain amount of combustion pressure that leaks past the rings and occupies the crankcase area. With a small "ring seal" issue the amount of this pressure is increased.

In an above post Michael mentioned the PCV system & breather; I too think this could very well be the problem! With excessive crankcase pressure it's espsecially important to have adequate valve cover breathers; preferably two large K&N style. It's also important to use valve covers that have convoluted baffles to keep the oil from climbing out through the breathers.

I think in your case, it's very possible that oil is being pushed up through the breather and/or PCV system and accumulating in the upper intake manifold under cruise/part throtlle conditions. Then under full throttle, with the intake system at maximum negative pressure, the engine is "sucking" the oil through the intake tract and into the combustion chambers. This would explain why there's very little or no smoke when you quickly "get on it" again; the oil hasn't had time to accumulate. It would also explain why it only occurs in certain cylinders; probably the ones closest to the oil "collection" point.


You might want give Lingenfelter Performance Engineering a call PH# 260 724-2552, here's their web siteLink
They have much experience with hi-po LT1s and LS1s.

Hope this helps!

Steve

[ July 15, 2004, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: 69 Riv GS ]

 

[carl97ss]

Michael and Steve, thanks for the HELP

on this. This is great.

I'm fairly positive that no oil is getting into the intake from the PCV or the side port. No APPRECIABLE oil under the throttlebody top plate, no appreciable oil in the hose from the valve cover to the sideport. However, to make sure on the side port, I will install a see thru fuel filter in that line tonight. It definately baffled me to see oil drops on the back of the throttle plates with no significant oil in the PCV filter ot the sideport hose, and throttlebody passages. At one time, I completely or partially disconnected the PCV and sideport and put in an air breather in the valve cover. I even put a filter on the end of the dipstick tube for additional breathing..

I still had oil consumption issues and interestingly, the Autotap was telling me the fueling was being affected by 15-20%. I can't recall if it was adding or subtracting the fuel. I think it was adding fuel. I think that could be important! I'll re-check that tonight also.

I have done compression tests on 3 cylinders on the drive's side that showed oil on the plugs. Engine was warm. They were all within 2-3 psi. Seven engine rotations, 207 psi. I then waited 5 minutes and I only lost 3-4 psi per cylinder! I can run this motor on 89 octane gas and only get significantly more knock in 5th and 6th gear under heavy acceleration. PCM tuned to 35% advance at WOT.

Terry, when he did the oil analysis on the motor before the rebuild, commented that this engine was very efficient and thought the valve seals might be the issue. Since I never have smoke on start up, even after the car has sat for a long time...days sometimes,I discounted the valve seals. I think I need to re-visit the seals. I don't know the type of seal used but the motor was built by someone you've heard of....this was not a $4,000 build, if you know what I mean.

Rubber seals are the way to go and not teflon, correct?

I don't know the length of the valves. I can try to find out. The valve springs can handle .600" lift and I assumed the clearences are there for the retainers not to hit the seals. I can pull a valve cover and check that.

I definately agree that when i get on it, it is sucking what oil there is in the intake and burning it, giving me smoke. Then when i get on it again ,a short time later, no smoke.

After this weekend, I'll have a clearer picture about the small possibility the sideport is sucking oil.

Once again, thanks for the HELP and guidence.

 

[Michael SR]

i just wanted to add, for general education in case people want to try it, that most modern cars have a sealed crankcase, applied vacuum from the intake manifold, and fed metered air from the inlet duct after the MAF. so if you use breathers/filters, you have to plug the line from the crankcase to the intake manifold (the PCV system), and the feed from the TB or inlet duct to the crankcase, or your engine will ingest unmetered air.

what happens, over time, is that the closed loop learning adjusts for this and applies the correction to open loop, so you end up with an unintended and sometimes wacky air/fuel ratio at WOT.

-michael