Lubrizol says SN PLUS and GF-6 not enough for LSPI protection in TGDI engines

[Bullwinkle007]

Originally Posted by edyvw

Originally Posted by Bullwinkle007

Theirs a simple fix. Don't own a DI. I never will until the problem is solved. I take care of my 2012 Accord and my 2007 Acura MDX. I will drive both of them well over 300k. I take care of the body, waxed etc.

There are numerous DI engines with 300k and more. This problem is not affecting everyone. But, now, you really do not have basically choice but to go with DI.

By older cars, most won't, or if you take care of your car, when it comes time, rebuild the engine. Most won't do that either. Most want to keep up with the Jones

 

[tcp71]

https://www.f150ecoboost.net/forum/6-f150-ecoboost-chat/28082-300-000-miles-my-2011-eco-boost.html First iteration of this engine buy Ford. Plenty of high mileage examples used by companies out there.

Originally Posted by bbhero

Originally Posted by edyvw

Originally Posted by Bullwinkle007

Theirs a simple fix. Don't own a DI. I never will until the problem is solved. I take care of my 2012 Accord and my 2007 Acura MDX. I will drive both of them well over 300k. I take care of the body, waxed etc.

There are numerous DI engines with 300k and more. This problem is not affecting everyone. But, now, you really do not have basically choice but to go with DI.

Please provide some 300k mile examples...... I am not saying that you are wrong here. I just have not heard of any as of yet.... One thing I have heard that actually helps keep this circumstance from happening is just use the pedal to the right with more ummphhh Don't know if that is true. But sure sounds good to me.

Originally Posted by bbhero

Originally Posted by edyvw

Originally Posted by Bullwinkle007

Theirs a simple fix. Don't own a DI. I never will until the problem is solved. I take care of my 2012 Accord and my 2007 Acura MDX. I will drive both of them well over 300k. I take care of the body, waxed etc.

There are numerous DI engines with 300k and more. This problem is not affecting everyone. But, now, you really do not have basically choice but to go with DI.

Please provide some 300k mile examples...... I am not saying that you are wrong here. I just have not heard of any as of yet.... One thing I have heard that actually helps keep this circumstance from happening is just use the pedal to the right with more ummphhh Don't know if that is true. But sure sounds good to me.

Originally Posted by bbhero

Originally Posted by edyvw

Originally Posted by Bullwinkle007

Theirs a simple fix. Don't own a DI. I never will until the problem is solved. I take care of my 2012 Accord and my 2007 Acura MDX. I will drive both of them well over 300k. I take care of the body, waxed etc.

There are numerous DI engines with 300k and more. This problem is not affecting everyone. But, now, you really do not have basically choice but to go with DI.

Please provide some 300k mile examples...... I am not saying that you are wrong here. I just have not heard of any as of yet.... One thing I have heard that actually helps keep this circumstance from happening is just use the pedal to the right with more ummphhh Don't know if that is true. But sure sounds good to me.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

Originally Posted by bbhero

I still like the idea of hammer down to help out with GDI issues

I think it's "pedal to the metal" at low RPM that helps trigger LSPI with turbo GDI. In other words, building boost at low RPM with large throttle openings.

I have noticed that during modest hill climbing, my FXT will not change RPM much at all but will instead raise the boost for the extra oomph. Of course, if I choose to stand on it boost and RPM will both jump. I would imagine there could be a considerable MPG benefit from keeping the engine in a steady 2000-2500RPM range during normal driving and just boosting when needed, but this is probably what leads to being in the "LSPI zone".

 

[parshisa]

I think we all know who was the manufacturer of the Formulation 1 that held up so well

 

[Mustangmaster]

The tune is the main factor in lspi. Make sure you run factory tunes and don't try to squeeze extra horsepower out of a small engine that already has plenty of horsepower. Here is an example of over 300,000 miles. 385,000 as of writing this. https://www.f150ecoboost.net/forum/...-300-000-miles-my-2011-eco-boost-14.html

 

[Virtus_Probi]

I am going to go look for "Formulation 1" brand oil at Walmart! Do you think it has a rebate? ;^) Although the definition of "Aged" is not given, I'm feeling good about changing oil at 5kmiles now.

 

[wemay]

That article is sobering. I have LSPI and d1G2 exhaustion. I'm just going to buy whatever oil is recommended in the manual and be done with it. If it happens to meet these specs, so be it but I'm not going to worry about this anymore. My Santa Fe turbo has run much more pre-d1G2 and SN+ Valvoline than anything else. 149k plus, miles later, it runs like new. Yes, this is anecdotal but that's my real-world experience.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted by parshisa

I think we all know who was the manufacturer of the Formulation 1 that held up so well

No arguments there - at least on major additive company is looking at this - depending on their market share, then a wide range of engine oils should be fine on aged oil (assuming that Formulation 1 is making it into the marketplace). LSPI is an engineering issue as was mentioned - but like alot of engineering issues co-designing the right lubricant and/or fuel to work at improving performance of GDI engines will solve the problem, and thereby enables more efficient technology which in turn reduces pollution = everybody wins.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi

I am going to go look for "Formulation 1" brand oil at Walmart! Do you think it has a rebate? ;^) Although the definition of "Aged" is not given, I'm feeling good about changing oil at 5kmiles now.

Agreed

 

[novadude]

What's interesting to me is that the (relatively) new GDI technology hasn't done a lot to improve mpg. A late-1990s, early-2000s 3800 GM v6 could easily pull down 29-30 mpg in a Grand Prix / Regal / Impala and run forever (intake manifold gasket / dexcool issues aside). A new 3.6L GDI impala gets about the same MPG. It does have 30-40% more power, but how often does the average consumer go pedal-to-the-metal? The old 3800 still had enough power to safely merge, etc. That old 3800 series is based on an early 1960s design, and only had four gears. No question more power with the same MPG is a great thing, but GDI also brings problems along with it. How far have we really come?

 

[4WD]

Of course as CAFE standards changed … 0.5 mpg more helped keep V8's around in the more profitable vehicles … One of the few threads I ever started was to name a past vehicle that would have been made better with today's 6-8 speed autos … back then I mentioned our H3 … but I had three sedans with 3800's and there is one never mentioned …

 

[emmett442]

Originally Posted by novadude

. That old 3800 series is based on an early 1960s design

Ehhh...that's quite a stretch of the truth. By the time the 231 became the "3800" (LN3), the only thing it had in common with it's predecessor was that it was a Buick V6 with a 231 displacement. I understand what you are arguing. While I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with it, I don't think it's fair to call the 3800 a 1960's design. It was pretty much new engine in the 1980's.

 

[4WD]

I never had the early motors … I had both the S2 and S3 Think the 2 came out in 1995 … lots of folks were calling different engines the same thing so GM started the series stuff Also, there were some iron and then aluminum V6's …

 

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted by 4WD

Of course as CAFE standards changed … 0.5 mpg more helped keep V8's around in the more profitable vehicles … One of the few threads I ever started was to name a past vehicle that would have been made better with today's 6-8 speed autos … back then I mentioned our H3 … but I had three sedans with 3800's and there is one never mentioned …

My 06 3.5L I-5 Colorado definitely would have benefited from 2-4 more gears......It would be interesting to see how a measly 220HP Vortec I-5 could have performed with a 6-8 speed transmission.

 

[4WD]

Yep … had one of those too (before the V8 Canyon) … no doubt that I5 would come alive staying n the ideal RPM range far more often …

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted by novadude

What's interesting to me is that the (relatively) new GDI technology hasn't done a lot to improve mpg. A late-1990s, early-2000s 3800 GM v6 could easily pull down 29-30 mpg in a Grand Prix / Regal / Impala and run forever (intake manifold gasket / dexcool issues aside). A new 3.6L GDI impala gets about the same MPG. It does have 30-40% more power, but how often does the average consumer go pedal-to-the-metal? The old 3800 still had enough power to safely merge, etc. That old 3800 series is based on an early 1960s design, and only had four gears. No question more power with the same MPG is a great thing, but GDI also brings problems along with it. How far have we really come?

DI has done wonders for the LT1 engine in the new Corvettes. Even when I don't use AFM, I can still get about 2-3 more MPG on the highway than I did with my old 2005 Corvette (that had 55 less HP too!) When I use AFM I see another 2 MPG more. So I would definitely say that direct injection has been a good thing for the Corvette. And I've yet to see any serious carbon buildup issues reported so far, and there are a number of people over 100k already on theirs. I think that if you use a good synthetic oil (and don't do super extended intervals), use nothing but Top Tier gas, and don't drive like a Grandma all the time, you have nothing to worry about with direct injection.

 

[dblshock]

yesterday, -7F to 14F took the 1.5T out for a 170mi. run, twisty rural country roads 55mph limits...6,500 on current 0/40, odo 38k, E091 TC-W3 fuel, Never missed a beat, many runs +80mph... like Sherman taking Atlanta, redline detector dark... was a blast. 39.9 mpg.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by dblshock

yesterday, -7F to 14F took the 1.5T out for a 170mi. run, twisty rural country roads 55mph limits...6,500 on current 0/40, odo 38k, E091 TC-W3 fuel, Never missed a beat, many runs +80mph... like Sherman taking Atlanta, redline detector dark... was a blast. 39.9 mpg.

So in plainer English, you were speeding and didn't get caught.

 

[pitzel]

Originally Posted by novadude

What's interesting to me is that the (relatively) new GDI technology hasn't done a lot to improve mpg. A late-1990s, early-2000s 3800 GM v6 could easily pull down 29-30 mpg in a Grand Prix / Regal / Impala and run forever (intake manifold gasket / dexcool issues aside). A new 3.6L GDI impala gets about the same MPG. It does have 30-40% more power, but how often does the average consumer go pedal-to-the-metal? The old 3800 still had enough power to safely merge, etc. That old 3800 series is based on an early 1960s design, and only had four gears. No question more power with the same MPG is a great thing, but GDI also brings problems along with it. How far have we really come?

DI does little to nothing to improve inherent combustion efficiency. It changes the thermodynamic efficiency of an engine not one iota, which is why, for a similar sized block (believe the Impala is the 60 degree, not the 3800 90-degree engine) their fuel efficiency is similar. However, the sort of cars that were previously shipped with 3800's that spent nearly all of their operating lives in relatively low power regimes (and hence high pumping losses), now are being delivered with 4-cylinder engines half the displacement that spend their operating lives much closer to what would be deemed peak efficiency. DI enabling much higher power output (albeit at significantly higher fuel consumption) at the very high end, but rarely encountered high output operating regime. So basically the car with the smaller block with DI is an inefficient fuel pig at high power settings, but the big block without DI is an inefficient fuel pig during the most commonly encountered operating regime, and that is, typically around 30-40hp of output, or basically what it takes to keep a typical car rolling down the highway at 70mph. On the Corvettes -- the gearing went from 0.50 in 6th to 0.45 in 7th between the 2005 and the 2019 models, ie: they were able to add another gear because DI augmented the torque and power of the engine at the extremities of power and torque required during transients that were reasonably expected to be experienced with such higher gearing. Given that the Corvette's fuel (in)efficiency is dominated by pumping and mechanical losses due to it being grossly oversized for the application, reducing operating RPMs by 10% logically improved efficiency by nearly the inverse, ie: +10%.

 

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted by Patman

Originally Posted by novadude

What's interesting to me is that the (relatively) new GDI technology hasn't done a lot to improve mpg. A late-1990s, early-2000s 3800 GM v6 could easily pull down 29-30 mpg in a Grand Prix / Regal / Impala and run forever (intake manifold gasket / dexcool issues aside). A new 3.6L GDI impala gets about the same MPG. It does have 30-40% more power, but how often does the average consumer go pedal-to-the-metal? The old 3800 still had enough power to safely merge, etc. That old 3800 series is based on an early 1960s design, and only had four gears. No question more power with the same MPG is a great thing, but GDI also brings problems along with it. How far have we really come?

DI has done wonders for the LT1 engine in the new Corvettes. Even when I don't use AFM, I can still get about 2-3 more MPG on the highway than I did with my old 2005 Corvette (that had 55 less HP too!) When I use AFM I see another 2 MPG more. So I would definitely say that direct injection has been a good thing for the Corvette. And I've yet to see any serious carbon buildup issues reported so far, and there are a number of people over 100k already on theirs. I think that if you use a good synthetic oil (and don't do super extended intervals), use nothing but Top Tier gas, and don't drive like a Grandma all the time, you have nothing to worry about with direct injection.

Is it the DI that helps with the fuel economy, or the higher number of gears?