Lubrizol says SN PLUS and GF-6 not enough for LSPI protection in TGDI engines

[Gokhan]

Lubrizol's real-world on-road tests have determined that most SN PLUS and GF-6 oils fail to pass the LSPI test when aged oil instead of fresh oil is used. Additive and detergent chemistry determines whether the aged oil, as well as the fresh oil, will have LSPI protection. So, it looks like the progress on LSPI protection in TGDI engines has been minimal. GF-6 will start licensing in mid-2020 and it probably won't include LSPI protection with aged oil. View the presentation here: https://www.lubrizoladditives360.co...rn-gasoline-direct-injection-technology/

 

[Bryanccfshr]

This is an issue that crankcase oil will not solve. It is an engineering problem and requires an engineering solution. Maybe on LSPI prone TGDI engines a mild detune or a change in the drop shift points in automatics(allowing less torque at low rpms) is needed to increase reliability for general consumer use. Maybe it's better to down shift and experience more revs as jarring as it may feel.

 

[Gokhan]

LSPI happens in TGDI engines but it's caused by the oil. Therefore, it's possible to prevent it by changing the oil chemistry.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Originally Posted by Gokhan

LSPI happens in TGDI engines but it's caused by the oil. Therefore, it's possible to prevent it by changing the oil chemistry.

The combustion conditions are what promotes the problem. Oil cannot solve that flaw in the design of the operational parameters that LSPI occurs. Altering the boost at low speed, or allowing the transmission to downshift and the engine to rev would remedy the issue regardless of oil formulation. This may cost a couple of MPG on the epA sequence test though.

 

[burla]

The gas gets directly injected into the combustion chamber, but then has to wait for the spark, and they think it is a good idea to make 50% of the vehicles this way? Change DI to PI problem solved, and actually mileage will be very close if not the same. yes in a lab it is x% more, but at the wheels you can easily make it a wash. problem is, out gov't is not reasonable, they want nothing better then to have us all in engines that don't last. I'm sure most people would opt for a Port Injection and a couple less HP if they new they would never have lspi. But, it isn't even an option. The found a way to make engines temporary, just like Japan. More car sales good for the industry, and good for the gov't.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr

... Altering the boost at low speed, or allowing the transmission to downshift and the engine to rev would remedy the issue regardless of oil formulation. This may cost a couple of MPG on the epA sequence test though.

Thereby defeating the whole rationale for the extra cost and drawbacks of GDI.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

TGDI specifically, you cannot rob physics of its thermal exchange law, there is a price..

Originally Posted by CR94

Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr

... Altering the boost at low speed, or allowing the transmission to downshift and the engine to rev would remedy the issue regardless of oil formulation. This may cost a couple of MPG on the epA sequence test though.

Thereby defeating the whole rationale for the extra cost and drawbacks of GDI.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by burla

The gas gets directly injected into the combustion chamber, but then has to wait for the spark, and they think it is a good idea to make 50% of the vehicles this way? Change DI to PI problem solved, and actually mileage will be very close if not the same. yes in a lab it is x% more, but at the wheels you can easily make it a wash. problem is, out gov't is not reasonable, they want nothing better then to have us all in engines that don't last. I'm sure most people would opt for a Port Injection and a couple less HP if they new they would never have lspi. But, it isn't even an option. The found a way to make engines temporary, just like Japan. More car sales good for the industry, and good for the gov't.

And thus the tinfoil hat club has a new president.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by dave1251

Originally Posted by burla

The gas gets directly injected into the combustion chamber, but then has to wait for the spark, and they think it is a good idea to make 50% of the vehicles this way? Change DI to PI problem solved, and actually mileage will be very close if not the same. yes in a lab it is x% more, but at the wheels you can easily make it a wash. problem is, out gov't is not reasonable, they want nothing better then to have us all in engines that don't last. I'm sure most people would opt for a Port Injection and a couple less HP if they new they would never have lspi. But, it isn't even an option. The found a way to make engines temporary, just like Japan. More car sales good for the industry, and good for the gov't.

And thus the tinfoil hat club has a new president.

I'm glad you could decipher all that. The above is a simplistic view of how GDI works. Over the years the automakers have been refining the process. In some cases the gasoline is injected at varying moments in the process and in some cases more than once or in varying amounts.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr

This is an issue that crankcase oil will not solve. It is an engineering problem and requires an engineering solution. Maybe on LSPI prone TGDI engines a mild detune or a change in the drop shift points in automatics(allowing less torque at low rpms) is needed to increase reliability for general consumer use. Maybe it's better to down shift and experience more revs as jarring as it may feel.

That is why many TGDI engines are actually developing much less power than possible. Think about new BMW B48 engine, it has after third irritation 255hp, and 295lb-ft. Not really anything special in 2019. I think some manufacturers, especially Korean jump to the shp to fast offering some really promisiong hp numbers, just to detune engines very soon after that.

 

[Bullwinkle007]

Theirs a simple fix. Don't own a DI. I never will until the problem is solved. I take care of my 2012 Accord and my 2007 Acura MDX. I will drive both of them well over 300k. I take care of the body, waxed etc.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Bullwinkle007

Theirs a simple fix. Don't own a DI. I never will until the problem is solved. I take care of my 2012 Accord and my 2007 Acura MDX. I will drive both of them well over 300k. I take care of the body, waxed etc.

There are numerous DI engines with 300k and more. This problem is not affecting everyone. But, now, you really do not have basically choice but to go with DI.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

I'm a proponent of advanced GDi technology. I think it's a better way to get more energy from the gasoline converted to mechanical energy. It's the forced induction and low rpm, high power situation that islinked As a conditional causation of LSPI. The oil metallic additives such as calcium and sodium being reduced, ay lower frequency, but the events still occur with the same consequences.

 

[bbhero]

Originally Posted by edyvw

Originally Posted by Bullwinkle007

Theirs a simple fix. Don't own a DI. I never will until the problem is solved. I take care of my 2012 Accord and my 2007 Acura MDX. I will drive both of them well over 300k. I take care of the body, waxed etc.

There are numerous DI engines with 300k and more. This problem is not affecting everyone. But, now, you really do not have basically choice but to go with DI.

Please provide some 300k mile examples...... I am not saying that you are wrong here. I just have not heard of any as of yet.... One thing I have heard that actually helps keep this circumstance from happening is just use the pedal to the right with more ummphhh Don't know if that is true. But sure sounds good to me.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by bbhero

Originally Posted by edyvw

Originally Posted by Bullwinkle007

Theirs a simple fix. Don't own a DI. I never will until the problem is solved. I take care of my 2012 Accord and my 2007 Acura MDX. I will drive both of them well over 300k. I take care of the body, waxed etc.

There are numerous DI engines with 300k and more. This problem is not affecting everyone. But, now, you really do not have basically choice but to go with DI.

Please provide some 300k mile examples...... I am not saying that you are wrong here. I just have not heard of any as of yet.... One thing I have heard that actually helps keep this circumstance from happening is just use the pedal to the right with more ummphhh Don't know if that is true. But sure sounds good to me.

Go sit in any gas taxi in Europe and look at the odometer. DI technology there is going on for two decades, especially TGDI. Now since the dieselgate, Turbo DI gassers basically took over market. As for pedal to the metal, that is related to Carbon build up that DI engines are prone too.

 

[ChemLabNL]

Ongoing "Structural Fragility" of ICE vehicles driven by political emissions regulation/MPG is driving this. The oil formulations will have to compensate as long as the ICE manufactures have a government gun to their heads.

 

[bbhero]

Man.... I don't go to Europe... That's number 1. Number 2... I have people to take care of here. Who I need to be here for them. And no they are not family members. They are my patients. I treat them has they were my own... Number 3... I was talking about anyone here in the continental United States... anyone you know of here going 300k miles on our hooptified gasoline And yes our gasoline quality is better than it was but still not has good has it really should be. I still like the idea of hammer down to help out with GDI issues

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by burla

I'm sure most people would opt for a Port Injection and a couple less HP if they new they would never have lspi.

And also less intake valve deposits that you can't do much about to prevent it from happening with GDI. Both my vehicles are port fuel injection, and I plan on keeping them a very long time.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by bbhero

I still like the idea of hammer down to help out with GDI issues

I think it's "pedal to the metal" at low RPM that helps trigger LSPI with turbo GDI. In other words, building boost at low RPM with large throttle openings.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Optimallynthis may trigger a downshift which would put less air per cycle into each cylinder. It is entirely up to the programming.the problem is lugging and boost. Lazy cruising

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

Originally Posted by bbhero

I still like the idea of hammer down to help out with GDI issues

I think it's "pedal to the metal" at low RPM that helps trigger LSPI with turbo GDI. In other words, building boost at low RPM with large throttle openings.