LS1 and Copper in analysis -last post

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For those that can't quite believe me when I've spoke about the Gerotor type oil pump being the largest source of copper through analysis in these engines maybe you can believe Moroso . These gerotor type pumps also have much more suction capability than the other style so since there is a TSB out on the o'ring leaking on the oil pick-up tube , those that have lifter tick at idle reallly should check into the O'ring TSB ..... no kidding . It needs be looked at IMO . Moroso on caged needle bearings My post is just in effort for the LS1 owners to better understand their engines and where copper wear sources from and to help remove some fiction and replace with fact [Wink] [ April 02, 2004, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]
 
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is there bronze or copper in the LSx oil pump? the ford 4.6/5.4 has the same pump design, and no copper. the older ford small blocks also have gerotor pumps, albeit not driven off the crank, and no copper there either. -michael
 

Motorbike

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Actually the 4.6's will show high copper in relation to their usual zero lead . Might be stop n go type driving . Some are higher than others . The LS-1 pump might have a slight indexing problem on the front of the engine block due to core shift during the manufacturing process . The cam bearings are a very soft aluminum alloy like any other domestic engine uses . All engine blocks , aftermarket intake manifolds can suffer from core shift through production series .
 
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These pumps use a anodized finish to harden the surface and make them more wear resistant .... Doesn't that mean they are made out of an aluminum alloy? I've never seen anodized copper or bronze .... [Confused] TS
 
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WELL... we need to find someone with an LS1 willing to swap oil pumps to this Moroso model. Then that will remove all doubt. Any takers? There are plenty of LS1 owners here. We could even start a pool to pay for the pump for them. Preferably on a fairly new car w/ low miles.
 

Motorbike

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Has anyone ever wished they could delete a topic they started ? [Big Grin] I just put my hands on a GM LS-1 oil pump and the rotor bushing is a type of steel alloy . I asked if the part had been superceded and the parts guy said not as far as he could tell . I sure thought a pic I saw showed a bronze bushing in one of those pumps .I've posted it here on this site but now cannot find it . Maybe it's been changed but I have to say at this time I Am Wrong [Smile] This one had an all aluminum alloy housing , the two rotor drive gears were of bright steel alloy . Behind the drive gears is an aluminum shim machined for end play setting . The front housing cover was of steel that reminded me more of Nodular Iron . I appologize for taking time out of ones day for this although if time was really , really important we might not be here so much [Smile] Now .... on the hunt for an old pump off an early LS1 [Wink] [Eek!]
 

Patman

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I didn't want to post here earlier as I wanted to see where this was going first, but I knew all along that the LS1's high copper doesn't come from the oil pump. It's from the cam bearings. This info comes directly from my cousin, who is an engine test engineer at the LS1/LS2/LS6 assembly plant in St.Catherines Ontario.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Motorbike: Actually the 4.6's will show high copper in relation to their usual zero lead . Might be stop n go type driving . Some are higher than others . The LS-1 pump might have a slight indexing problem on the front of the engine block due to core shift during the manufacturing process . The cam bearings are a very soft aluminum alloy like any other domestic engine uses . All engine blocks , aftermarket intake manifolds can suffer from core shift through production series .
I've driven 4.6Ls. I have nothing but 4.6Ls.... Mustangs, F-150s etc. I haven't seen high copper numbers, especially in the 4.6L. [ April 02, 2004, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: mf150 ]
 
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....deleted.... I assume you have seen a GM pump... to confirm "other pumps" means GM gerotor pump. But why doesn't more tin show up? Sometimes there is hundreds of ppm copper and no only a couple ppm tin. [ April 02, 2004, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Jason Troxell ]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Motorbike: Actually the 4.6's will show high copper in relation to their usual zero lead .
this might be so, but i meant there's no copper in their oil pumps. i have disassembled modular oil pumps, there's a direct interface between the steel rotors and the aluminum housing. so if modulars have high copper, it's not from the pumps. the production 5.0L pumps are the same way. i think the older 302 pumps were cast iron, but the 5.0L pumps were aluminum, and the rotors/shaft ran directly on the aluminum. has anyone here ever looked inside an LSx pump? -michael
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Troxell: WELL... we need to find someone with an LS1 willing to swap oil pumps to this Moroso model. Then that will remove all doubt. Any takers? There are plenty of LS1 owners here. We could even start a pool to pay for the pump for them. Preferably on a fairly new car w/ low miles.
I would do it, but I don't know if I have the guts to do the swap! My car only has 17k on the clock and just had all 8 pistons replaced. It showed a lot of copper (as usual) last UOA. EDIT: Hmmmmm.......nevermid! [Cool] [ April 03, 2004, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
 
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I don't think the added copper from the cam bearings hurts the integrity of the LS1 one bit as just today I saw an LS1 with over 120,000 miles on it put down 335rwhp @ 342rwtq with simply a lid, longtube headers and a catback exhaust.
 
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