Low Starting TBN of New Synthetic Oils

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Yep, it's all specific to the combination of oil, vehicle and operational environment.

Proposed new BITOG Credo:

"Once Size Does NOT Fit All!"
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Perhaps it will make people think twice before making blanket statements that ANY synthetic can easily go 10k OCIs.

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Yep, it's all specific to the combination of oil, vehicle and operational environment.

Proposed new BITOG Credo:

"Once Size Does NOT Fit All!"


hmmm...had to check post counts and nope, neither of you are new! Where did you guys come up with this stuff
whistle.gif


I'll second your proposal!
 
Search Doug Hillary and TBN/TAN. I think you'll find that TAN levels are not very relevant when it comes to a 10k mile OCI in an automotive application. It's something that people like to obsess over.
 
Originally Posted By: cp3
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Perhaps it will make people think twice before making blanket statements that ANY synthetic can easily go 10k OCIs.

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Yep, it's all specific to the combination of oil, vehicle and operational environment.

Proposed new BITOG Credo:

"Once Size Does NOT Fit All!"


hmmm...had to check post counts and nope, neither of you are new! Where did you guys come up with this stuff
whistle.gif


I'll second your proposal!



Check this thread then:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2300188&page=1

These kinds of blanket statements are usually made whenever synthetic vs dino is discussed. Although, I have to admit, I don’t see it lately, which is a good thing.
 
I asked xom about this because their oils have a TBN around 8-9+ now. They said Tbn retention is better.
 
Originally Posted By: Gene K
I just did a 30,000 mile run on conventional in a diesel.
Starting TBN - 10.6
Finishing TBN - 6.25

Sure, rub it in!
smile.gif
My GTI 1.8T would probably drop the TBN that much in only 3000 miles.

I used M1 5W-30 ESP and was disappointed in its ability to prevent varnish in my VW. In contrast I was very impressed with Penzzoil Ultra 5W-40 in this regard which I ran for roughly double the miles that the M1 ESP.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: Gene K
I just did a 30,000 mile run on conventional in a diesel.
Starting TBN - 10.6
Finishing TBN - 6.25

Sure, rub it in!
smile.gif
My GTI 1.8T would probably drop the TBN that much in only 3000 miles.

I used M1 5W-30 ESP and was disappointed in its ability to prevent varnish in my VW. In contrast I was very impressed with Penzzoil Ultra 5W-40 in this regard which I ran for roughly double the miles that the M1 ESP.
Interesting to hear that M1 left varnish. How many MCI's did you run the ESP and what did you run prior?
 
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: Gene K
I just did a 30,000 mile run on conventional in a diesel.
Starting TBN - 10.6
Finishing TBN - 6.25

Sure, rub it in!
smile.gif
My GTI 1.8T would probably drop the TBN that much in only 3000 miles.

I used M1 5W-30 ESP and was disappointed in its ability to prevent varnish in my VW. In contrast I was very impressed with Penzzoil Ultra 5W-40 in this regard which I ran for roughly double the miles that the M1 ESP.
Interesting to hear that M1 left varnish. How many MCI's did you run the ESP and what did you run prior?

I ran the ESP for 1 oil change interval and for around 3800 miles. Other people with the longitudinal 1.8T engine seem to be able to run oils much longer than me and see no varnish but maybe they don't watch it as closely as I do or maybe my particular engine is predisposed to it. Previous oils I've used (NOT in this order):
M1 0W-40 (2003/2004 & ~2009 versions)
Valvoline Synpower 5W-40 (old high-SAPS and current mid-SAPS)
Lubromoly 0W-40 and 5W-40 (~2005-2008 versions)
German Castrol 0W-30
M1 5W-40 TDT
Amsoil ACD SAE 30
Amsoil 5W-40 (old high-SAPS)
Redline (various mixes)
Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40
 
Awhile ago, someone said when they used Amsoil 0w20 it left what looked to be varnish behind. Molekule said:

"I wouldn't assume it's varnish at all.

The combination of the newer anti-wear additives, friction modifiers, and detergents, tend to run yellow then brown.
(and I mean a really Golden Yellow)."

If it's varnish, that sucks. Varnish is an actual hard, baked on deposit, and it's usually a brownish type color.


I'll be curious to see if the Tbn retention is as good on the lower Tbn oils. I think it will be.

Artem's recent Amsoil Euro 5w30 looked good. Help up well.
 
Hi Buster, I'd say that what Molakule said is true in my case but I can see gooey globules start showing up on the plastic cam cover and underside of the oil cap near the end of some oil changes. The darkening of the metal coincides with that. That doesn't sound like what Molakule mentioned. Thanks for bringing that up though because I forgot he said that.


Quote:
If the oil manufacturers say retention is better, I wonder if they can explain why.

I'd like to hear from them too but I would bet that at least part of the true answer (vs the likely balogne answers they often give us) is that the antioxidant additives are better and so less detergency is lost to neutralizing acidic by-products of oxidized base oil molecules. There are other possibilities as well.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
Or rather, explain how I can judge an oil's TBN retention capabilities.


...am I mistaken to conclude that TBN depletes more rapidly in an older engine or at least from app to app? Retention is as much dependent on oil formulation as the app the oil is used in to begin with.
 
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Originally Posted By: dparm
Or rather, explain how I can judge an oil's TBN retention capabilities.


...am I mistaken to conclude that TBN depletes more rapidly in an older engine or at least from app to app? Retention is as much dependent on oil formulation as the app the oil is used in to begin with.


No, you are right on. Anything that causes the additive pack to work harder will deplete it faster and lower the TBN more quickly. A tired engine will allow more combustion gasses past the rings, more fuel dilution etc. The operational environment is vital too and some situations will deplete the additive pack faster. One size doesn't fit all.
 
But again, how do you define "tired engine"? Is that to say anything with over 100k? Something that saw a lot of lousy oil/gas before? A motor that gets beat on a lot?
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
But again, how do you define "tired engine"? Is that to say anything with over 100k? Something that saw a lot of lousy oil/gas before? A motor that gets beat on a lot?


A one-size-fits-all definition or categorization is not possible. A tired engine is as a tired engine does. Any problems due to engine condition, operating situation or prior neglect will become evident in the UOA and the owner will then have the opportunity to adjust maintenance schedules. If you UOA and see the engine is bearing the oil down in short order, then you adjust the OCI. Or vice versa.
 
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