Lossless audio music

[Donald]

When your my age you probably cannot tell.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Donald

When your my age you probably cannot tell.

I "hear" you ! Hey, what discouraged me for a few years after being into audio my whole life was ringing in my ears after an ear infection gone wild a decade back. (frustrating part was I did see a doctor before this happened) Anyway, in the past, I guess I got used to the ringing to the point where it doesnt bother me anymore, at one point, in dead quiet with headphones on it would drive me nuts and gave them up trying.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted by alarmguy

I am having an issue finding low cost on ear headphones and also in ear plugs with a NICE, FLAT FREQUENCY RESPONSE. Seems no matter what the cost, high or low, EVERYTHING is enhanced bass, drives me nuts! I do not want the headphone makers altering the sound of the artist, to me, all it does is screw things up BUT I do understand, that is what Joe Public wants or the darn things would not sell.

Not sure what your definition of "low cost" is, but you may want to check out Philips SHP9500. They were a little too flat for me as I do like a little bit of bass emphasis, but it sounds like they may align well with your listening preferences. They're about $60 new. They are open back though. As for in-ear, I'd recommend TinAudio T2. I think they were around $30 when I got them. They may be a little higher nowadays.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by alarmguy

^^agree YouTube is not lossless, no way but Im sure better then the standard stuff. Interesting subject, I thought I was one of the few who really cared about the "downgrading" of audio sound since the invention of MP3s At the same time, to truly have lossless takes a commitment and money. There are some streaming services now that are close to lossless, maybe much in the same way as "lossless" Youtube type sound. I almost went with one but decided to go with a free couple month test of Apple Music, definitely not close to CD quality but I dont know, maybe its in my head, certainly sounds better then your standard MP3 or free music streaming. Im just getting back into music (for lack of better words) I was going to go with Tital High Fidelity Streaming but their dysfunctional website (was not off to a good start)would not give me a free 3 month offer that I had and tried to give me one month and why I ended up with Apple Music for a free 4 month trial. Dont trash me, I am not saying Apple Music is close to CD or lossless but I will say I do strongly think is is a cut above your typical free streaming and will only get better in time if competition heats up they have the money to improve it. I have researched the subject and Apple does offer a slight edge over most others and form what I understand a tie with even more others. The only other choice after that seems to be Tital and well, Im not doing it. I am having an issue finding low cost on ear headphones and also in ear plugs with a NICE, FLAT FREQUENCY RESPONSE. Seems no matter what the cost, high or low, EVERYTHING is enhanced bass, drives me nuts! I do not want the headphone makers altering the sound of the artist, to me, all it does is screw things up BUT I do understand, that is what Joe Public wants or the darn things would not sell. I have found some of the low cost ones that do not advertise low bass sound more neutral then much more costly! Im too embarrassed to tell you what brand I just bought for on ear. Just trying them out for fun but may keep them. I seen mention of Sennheisers in here, Im a fan of them, current over the ears pair I have are getting on in years, forgot model but look at me as more of a value investor of electronics. With that said honestly the over ear are too large for what I want them for as well, but one thing they do not do is overpower the midrange with bass, I just think its almost a lost cause trying to find an honest flat response headphone anymore if the company wants to stay in business, the public demands bass, no matter how inaccurate it is from the artist. Gosh, go back a couple decades and the true experts in audio would freak out over how sound is degraded and manipulated from what the artist produced.

B&W produces headphones, they sound like they should be right up your alley.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted by alarmguy

the public demands bass, no matter how inaccurate it is from the artist.

One thing about this, how can we know for sure what sound the artist truly intended? Short of being present in the recording studio when the album was recorded, how can we tell? On the other hand, when you go to a concert, you experience thunderous chest pounding amounts of bass that most home audio systems or headphones can't even come close to replicating. Alas, concerts are meant for general entertainment and less for accuracy/critical listening, so that isn't really a valid point of reference either, IMO. My personal approach is to not chase after "what the artist intended" since I really don't know how to find that, but instead to obtain the sound I personally enjoy, and that will be different for each of us. Home audio environments are affected by so many factors (speaker response, speaker placement, amps, DACs, room layout, room treatment, etc.) that trying to achieve truly flat response would be an exercise in futility.

 

[Alfred_B]

-- My personal approach is to not chase after "what the artist intended" since I really don't know how to find that, but instead to obtain the sound I personally enjoy, and that will be different for each of us. Home audio environments are affected by so many factors (speaker response, speaker placement, amps, DACs, room layout, room treatment, etc.) that trying to achieve truly flat response would be an exercise in futility. -- Exactly. I wouldn't want to reproduce a Slayer concert in my living room.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete

Originally Posted by alarmguy

I am having an issue finding low cost on ear headphones and also in ear plugs with a NICE, FLAT FREQUENCY RESPONSE. Seems no matter what the cost, high or low, EVERYTHING is enhanced bass, drives me nuts! I do not want the headphone makers altering the sound of the artist, to me, all it does is screw things up BUT I do understand, that is what Joe Public wants or the darn things would not sell.

Not sure what your definition of "low cost" is, but you may want to check out Philips SHP9500.

A friend at work got those and the SQ and build is excellent for the price. If you don't want to spend over 35 bucks I would recommend the Samson SR850 with stock velour pads.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Anyone listen to the Bob Wood links I posted above? Really Killer vinyl playback and not a stupid 50 thousand dollar idiot-phile rig either,

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

Anyone listen to the Bob Wood links I posted above?

Yup, good stuff. Nice setup. BTW, here is another HQ track that is commonly used to audition speakers in audiophile community. I'm not much of an audiophile, but I always play it (the FLAC version, not the Youtube version) on any new speakers I get, along with a handful of other well produced tracks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-h6MoF7HLA

 

[Pew]

Originally Posted by alarmguy

I seen mention of Sennheisers in here, Im a fan of them, current over the ears pair I have are getting on in years, forgot model but look at me as more of a value investor of electronics. With that said honestly the over ear are too large for what I want them for as well, but one thing they do not do is overpower the midrange with bass, I just think its almost a lost cause trying to find an honest flat response headphone anymore if the company wants to stay in business, the public demands bass, no matter how inaccurate it is from the artist.

I've have [had] 5 pairs of Sennheisers and the over-the-ear ones seem to be the most consistent with quality. I started with the HD558 and gave those away when I got a pair of HD598s for home and I currently use a pair of HD428s at work. Their earbuds I've tried were the Momentums which met their untimely demise when I left the earbuds dangling out my car door on the way to the gym. Replaced those with CX300s which I returned after a week (HORRIBLE sound.) Have you looked at Klipsch yet? Their quality is on-par with Sennheisers from my experience with a nice warm mid/highs and no boomy lows either.

 

[Gillsy]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk

Since you guys are name dropping... Creek integrated, Monitor Audio Silvers and Velodyne sub. I think I had a high end Sony CD player; don't remember. For the $$, this is a superb sounding audio system. These speakers reproduce the human voice better than anything I have ever heard... Gotta have a clean signal. Unfortunately I only use the Monitor Audios nowadays on the home theater. Maybe I should plug something back in...

I had a pair of Monitor Audio's. Don't recall the model (tweet, midbass midrange, and bass). Well constructed, and easy on the eyes with small footprint. Those were replaced with Revel F32's. Those are the finest speakers I've owned. My Hegel H80 was sold, and replaced with Cary Audio pre, power, and HDCD player. I now have a solid wall of sound with no left or right. The salesman talked me into Yamaha Musicast. I can do internet radio, or stream Spotify at 320 bit. Looking forward to one day having a dedicated music room, and trying some Magnepans. Boy are they transparent. Rock on!

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I've heard the Performa F30 they a decade or 2 ago, they were a bargain at about 3k a set. A bit postmodern > odd looking though. The the The M20 were the best medium sized bookshelf I've ever heard - absolutely transparent to the source. Hear through a ML integrated with a nice Wadia one box CD as source. ( sadly no good TT setup at the time) I'm not usually a fan of tower speakers due to the problematic and audible wave termination and reflection at the floor

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

Anyone listen to the Bob Wood links I posted above?

Yup, good stuff. Nice setup. BTW, here is another HQ track that is commonly used to audition speakers in audiophile community. I'm not much of an audiophile, but I always play it (the FLAC version, not the Youtube version) on any new speakers I get, along with a handful of other well produced tracks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-h6MoF7HLA

Not Bad, Listenable, Does sound a bit "slick" to me. At least it wasn't Keith Dont Go! I've heard that to death. I like stuff that can dig deep into my old favs thet wern't particularly well recorded like moody blues and Yes without turning to mush or strident. Here is a decent vinyl replay of YES Ive seen all good people on a well sorted upper midfi system https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B9cQJ2_cck ( Thank You Israel Quezada for the up load! My question is: are the recorders ( wood flutes) at 1min 28sec real or taped and played on a Mellotron?

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete

Originally Posted by alarmguy

the public demands bass, no matter how inaccurate it is from the artist.

One thing about this, how can we know for sure what sound the artist truly intended? Short of being present in the recording studio when the album was recorded, how can we tell? On the other hand, when you go to a concert, you experience thunderous chest pounding amounts of bass that most home audio systems or headphones can't even come close to replicating. Alas, concerts are meant for general entertainment and less for accuracy/critical listening, so that isn't really a valid point of reference either, IMO. My personal approach is to not chase after "what the artist intended" since I really don't know how to find that, but instead to obtain the sound I personally enjoy, and that will be different for each of us. Home audio environments are affected by so many factors (speaker response, speaker placement, amps, DACs, room layout, room treatment, etc.) that trying to achieve truly flat response would be an exercise in futility.

Quattro, Pew, Arco, Alfred ... First, thanks for those posts regarding neutral sounding ear pieces. No sense in me restating why for others, its all above in these threads. "as the artist intended" Here is my answer to all those that posted about my comment. First question would be, if you are not searching for equipment that can reproduce the sound the "artist" intended then why not go to the dollar store and pick up some headphones? Its super easy to make cheap or super expensive equipment that is not capable or reproducing sound as it was recorded. If not, then the whole purpose of high fidelity is lost. You need a standard or that $200 headphone is just as good as the $7 one. The standard is electronic equipment being able to reproduce what is recorded, if it can not, then it is inferior. If your equipment can not do that, then you are actually listening to sound/music from cheap overpriced garbage or the way the equipment maker intended NOT the artist. Now with that said, what do you think the "for profit" equipment maker will do? They will reproduce music with the cheapest possible components at the highest possible profit for the general population who has no idea what so ever what they are buying or trying to accomplish, as long as it sounds good to them, it doesnt matter if it is "what the artist" which they are paying for "intended. There has to be a standard and the standard is what it is that comes out of the studio! Then, after that, you can do whatever you want with it and Taylor it more to your liking but if you never know the "truth" of how it is supposed to sound, then what the heck are you buying? So much of the population is being dumbed down by corporations making massive profits over this garbage they are forgetting about the purpose of the music itself and how it should sound. if I see one more headphone with the words " Extra Bass" I am going to throw up. *L* For gods sake, if you want "extra bass" turn up the bass on your equipment. I just want to hear what the recording is, I do not need equipment manufacturers deciding what I hear from the music I pay for. With all the above said, yes, I know full well the upper class and honestly anyone who wants to spend the money can have true truthful unadulterated music from some fine companies equipment out there, much of them pretty much marketed as studio headphones, monitors etc. I mean, even the poptart audio reviewers that are online have no idea what they are talking about, what they are listening too and can not rely on anything they say and most of them just trying to generate clicks to purchase products., drives me nuts *L* _______ Ps, call me crazy but gosh darn, the $20 wired Apple earbuds that came with my iPhone sound better then a lot of this crap. Here I am looking to spend up to a modest $150 or so IF, IF I can be assured of an accurate sounding WIFI on ear or in ear headphone with good battery life, thing is, I know they are out there, some suggestions in here but I do want an ON ear or IN ear, most likely an in ear simply because I have number of on and over already and will make do until I find the holy grail.

 

[Quattro Pete]

I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete

I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?

I did not see your question. But posted enough about it above. Answer= By having equipment that is capable of playing back, when presented, a flat frequency response at all frequencies from high to low. The vast majority of consumer headphones have a doctored frequency response to what the manufacturer thinks will sell best, it also allows products to be cheaply made.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by alarmguy

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete

I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?

I did not see your question. But posted enough about it above. Answer= By having equipment that is capable of playing back a flat frequency response at all frequencies from high to low. The vast majority of consumer headphones have a doctored frequency response to what the manufacturer thinks will sell best, it also allows products to be cheaply made.

My B&W's were designed and used as studio reference monitors. They definitely have a different sound (as I described earlier in the thread) from many other speakers I've listened to. I've never owned headphones that have sounded like those speakers, though I'm sure some exist. I've not tried the B&W headphones, so perhaps they deliver on that front?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted by alarmguy

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete

I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?

I did not see your question. But posted enough about it above. Answer= By having equipment that is capable of playing back, when presented, a flat frequency response at all frequencies from high to low. The vast majority of consumer headphones have a doctored frequency response to what the manufacturer thinks will sell best, it also allows products to be cheaply made.

My question was more in reference to home stereo systems rather than headphones. Headphone response is easier by the manufacturer to control. As I wrote earlier, even if you find equipment capable of delivering truly flat frequency response in an anechoic chamber, all bets are off once you place that equipment in the comfort of your home due to various factors such as room gain, standing waves, speaker placement, etc. Do you use REW and a calibrated mic to measure your actual in-room frequency response at the MLP and then apply EQ to make it flat? Also, for most of us, flat response doesn't sound very good at lower listening levels due to the way our ears function - our perception of very low frequencies and very high frequencies is weaker than our perception of midrange frequencies at lower volumes, so often times we benefit from boosting these low and high frequencies at lower volume levels - the function known as "loudness" in the olden days.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete

Also, for most of us, flat response doesn't sound very good at lower listening levels due to the way our ears function - our perception of very low frequencies and very high frequencies is weaker than our perception of midrange frequencies at lower volumes, so often times we benefit from boosting these low and high frequencies at lower volume levels - the function known as "loudness" in the olden days.

That's a very important point. The volume level at where things sound "good" is well above what is typically reasonable listening levels where other people may be present and there are perhaps conversations taking place.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete

Originally Posted by alarmguy

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete

I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?

I did not see your question. But posted enough about it above. Answer= By having equipment that is capable of playing back, when presented, a flat frequency response at all frequencies from high to low. The vast majority of consumer headphones have a doctored frequency response to what the manufacturer thinks will sell best, it also allows products to be cheaply made.

My question was more in reference to home stereo systems rather than headphones. Headphone response is easier by the manufacturer to control. As I wrote earlier, even if you find equipment capable of delivering truly flat frequency response in an anechoic chamber, all bets are off once you place that equipment in the comfort of your home due to various factors such as room gain, standing waves, speaker placement, etc. Do you use REW and a calibrated mic to measure your actual in-room frequency response at the MLP and then apply EQ to make it flat? Also, for most of us, flat response doesn't sound very good at lower listening levels due to the way our ears function - our perception of very low frequencies and very high frequencies is weaker than our perception of midrange frequencies at lower volumes, so often times we benefit from boosting these low and high frequencies at lower volume levels - the function known as "loudness" in the olden days.

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete

Originally Posted by alarmguy

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete

I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?

I did not see your question. But posted enough about it above. Answer= By having equipment that is capable of playing back, when presented, a flat frequency response at all frequencies from high to low. The vast majority of consumer headphones have a doctored frequency response to what the manufacturer thinks will sell best, it also allows products to be cheaply made.

My question was more in reference to home stereo systems rather than headphones. Headphone response is easier by the manufacturer to control. As I wrote earlier, even if you find equipment capable of delivering truly flat frequency response in an anechoic chamber, all bets are off once you place that equipment in the comfort of your home due to various factors such as room gain, standing waves, speaker placement, etc. Do you use REW and a calibrated mic to measure your actual in-room frequency response at the MLP and then apply EQ to make it flat? Also, for most of us, flat response doesn't sound very good at lower listening levels due to the way our ears function - our perception of very low frequencies and very high frequencies is weaker than our perception of midrange frequencies at lower volumes, so often times we benefit from boosting these low and high frequencies at lower volume levels - the function known as "loudness" in the olden days.

Here is why you are wrong, with due respect. You don't buy faulty cheap equipment, unable to properly reproduce a consistent level output across the sound spectrum when the source recording calls for it because your room will be different. Every room is different in every home or arena, you then adjust to your liking and acoustics, even though most screw that up..the key is that the equipment is capable. Look at it this way. You want to adjust your system for your room but your overpriced cheap product is already deficient in the range you want to adjust? Nothing, you will make bad even worse. Yes I was talking headphones in all my threads but to the contrary it's harder or just as hard to get the headphones or plugs into a flat response vs a speaker.