Loss of shift smoothness (oil related, not mechanical).

[Retet]

Hi all. So I've owned many trail bikes over the last 10 years, and I generally ride them very hard, mostly off road. I change the oil when the shifting becomes too difficult, and gear changes are missed. At this point it feels like there is a lot of friction on the shift lever. But once the oil is replaced, it shifts like butter again.

Here is a list of the oils that I've used over the years, in various small bore thumpers (with consistent results across different bikes) and how many miles it roughly takes to get to this point when the shifting becomes a problem:

10w30's
Valvoline Synpower: ..............200 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Castrol Power 1:.......................300 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Motul 7100:...............................300 miles (only used once)

10w40's
Valvoline Synpower:...............400 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Castrol Power 1:.......................500 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Shell Advance Ultra:...............800 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Mannol Motorbike 4T:..........900 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Comma 4 stroke (Part syn): 900 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Motul 5100:...............................900 Miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Silkolene Pro 4:........................1100 miles (only used once)
Motul 7100:...............................1300 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)

5w40's
Comma 4 stroke:.....................900 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)

So there is a clear pattern in that the 40 oils are able to last longer than the 30 oils before the friction in the gear leaver becomes too much, and in some cases much longer.

My ultimate goal is to find an oil that will last the longest and at a reasonable price. But I don't know why some are lasting so much longer than others. Other than it might be something to do with the viscosity.

So does anyone know what might be happening here? Is it shear down? A breakdown of the additives? Something else?

Should I stick with 10w40 or would a different viscosity yield longer life?

 

[totegoat]

Over a 1,000 miles of smooth shifting with Valvoline 10w40 4-stroke motorcycle oil.

 

[DriveHard]

I'd be interested in your findings of Mobil 1 15w50

 

[Retet]

Over a 1,000 miles of smooth shifting with Valvoline 10w40 4-stroke motorcycle oil.

Its always been the worst oil I've used unfortunately. This was consistent over a couple of different bottles, bought years apart. Shame really, because it's always available over here at Halfords, and can sometimes be gotten on offer, that's how I've ended up with it in the past.
I don't doubt that if ridden gently or in a bike that isn't as hard on oil as mine seem to be, that it will serve you well.

 

[Retet]

I'd be interested in your findings of Mobil 1 15w50

I cant recall ever using Mobil. Its always been more expensive than the competition.
I'd be interested in trying a 15w oil although, but it will probably be a 15w40. Because when I switched form the 10w30 to the 10w40, I noticed a slight dulling of the power, it didn't feel quite as free running as with the 10w30. It did have the added benefit of making the bike run with less vibration though, in the upper rev range. I'd be afraid to use a 50 just in case it dulls the engine further, given that the CRF300L is already not a very powerfull engine.

I hear that the closer together the two number are, the more sheer stable an oil is. I can only find one 15w40 available in the UK though, and its a semi-synthetic (Biltema 4L Motorcycle Oil 15W–40 Semi Synthetic). Do you think it might give longer service life than the others Ive tried? Providing it is shearing that I'm experiencing with the others?

 

[wpod]

15W-40 or 20W50.

 

[wpod]

Thicker is better , less viscosity spread is better, try a 15W-40 or a 20W50.

 

[FZ1]

Hi all. So I've owned many trail bikes over the last 10 years, and I generally ride them very hard, mostly off road. I change the oil when the shifting becomes too difficult, and gear changes are missed. At this point it feels like there is a lot of friction on the shift lever. But once the oil is replaced, it shifts like butter again.

Here is a list of the oils that I've used over the years, in various small bore thumpers (with consistent results across different bikes) and how many miles it roughly takes to get to this point when the shifting becomes a problem:

10w30's
Valvoline Synpower: ..............200 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Castrol Power 1:.......................300 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Motul 7100:...............................300 miles (only used once)

10w40's
Valvoline Synpower:...............400 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Castrol Power 1:.......................500 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Shell Advance Ultra:...............800 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Mannol Motorbike 4T:..........900 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Comma 4 stroke (Part syn): 900 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Motul 5100:...............................900 Miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)
Silkolene Pro 4:........................1100 miles (only used once)
Motul 7100:...............................1300 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)

5w40's
Comma 4 stroke:.....................900 miles (consistent over multiple oil changes)

So there is a clear pattern in that the 40 oils are able to last longer than the 30 oils before the friction in the gear leaver becomes too much, and in some cases much longer.

My ultimate goal is to find an oil that will last the longest and at a reasonable price. But I don't know why some are lasting so much longer than others. Other than it might be something to do with the viscosity.

So does anyone know what might be happening here? Is it shear down? A breakdown of the additives? Something else?

Should I stick with 10w40 or would a different viscosity yield longer life?

My bike shifts better with Amsoil MC oil vs. Mobil 1 Motorcycle oil

 

[Retet]

Thicker is better , less viscosity spread is better, try a 15W-40 or a 20W50.

Thanks
I can only find 15w40 part synthetic though. Do you still think it will last longer than fully synthetic 10w40?

 

[BusyLittleShop]

So does anyone know what might be happening here?

Over 50 years worth of Experience has shown me that shift quality is a
personal truth and not a objective truth because it refers to judgment
shaped by personal opinions and feelings instead of actual outside
influences... in other words humans are easily fooled...

 

[Retet]

Over 50 years worth of Experience has shown me that shift quality is a
personal truth and not a objective truth because it refers to judgment
shaped by personal opinions and feelings instead of actual outside
influences... in other words humans are easily fooled...

I'm well aware that people are easily fooled, subjected to the placebo effect, and swayed by their feelings. But that simply doesn't apply in this case.

I'm not talking about a slight change in shift feel. I'm referring to it becoming physically difficult to pull up the shifter to the point where it can't be done by flexing your ankle as it was previously. But you have to lock your ankle and use your thigh muscles to lift the shifter. I can assure you that it is very measurable, and becomes quite a hindrance if left unchecked.

What is your 50 years of experience?

 

[FZ1]

I'm well aware that people are easily fooled, subjected to the placebo effect, and swayed by their feelings. But that simply doesn't apply in this case.

I'm not talking about a slight change in shift feel. I'm referring to it becoming physically difficult to pull up the shifter to the point where it can't be done by flexing your ankle as it was previously. But you have to lock your ankle and use your thigh muscles to lift the shifter. I can assure you that it is very measurable, and becomes quite a hindrance if left unchecked.

What is your 50 years of experience?

Wonder if it could be a bent shift fork?

 

[kschachn]

I'm well aware that people are easily fooled, subjected to the placebo effect, and swayed by their feelings. But that simply doesn't apply in this case.

I'm not talking about a slight change in shift feel. I'm referring to it becoming physically difficult to pull up the shifter to the point where it can't be done by flexing your ankle as it was previously. But you have to lock your ankle and use your thigh muscles to lift the shifter. I can assure you that it is very measurable, and becomes quite a hindrance if left unchecked.

What is your 50 years of experience?

No appropriately rated oil is going to cause those issues.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

What is your 50 years of experience?

After 50 years dealing with riding and racing customers who complained
about shift quality the clutch and not oil fixed the problem... Manufactures
warn owners that our gears can't shift smoothly if our clutch is part
way engaged... check for unwanted clutch drag...

Here are the steps how to check and eliminate unwanted clutch drag...

1 Place your bike on the center stand...

2 Start engine and establish a steady idle at 212ºF (operating temp)...

3 Squeeze in the clutch lever and shift into first gear...

4 Continue holding in the clutch lever and note if the rear wheel coast to stop or not...
if it continues spinning that's unwanted drag... adjust...

To adjust a cable equipped bike turn the small knob clock wise (out)
1/4 turn and test for clutch drag... if your bike is equipped with
hydraulics bleed system for bubbles...

Ultimately you want the rear wheel to coast to a stop when the engine
is idling and first gear selected with the clutch lever is squeezed in...

A tip on shift TECHNIQUE...
I think we are after the same thing... smooth shift without upsetting
the suspension... the secret is moving the foot quicker than clutch or
throttle... go easy with the clutch and throttle but move your foot
quick... but worry there is no such thing as too quick... its early
form of seem less shifting...

Dillion
A new FZ8 customer was experiencing notchy shifting on factory fill
Yama Lube... like you he wasn't sure if the oil was the problem... So
we called Yamaha customer relations and got an official technician on
the line and asked if there was a difference in shifting quality
between the recommended 30 or 40 weight oil??? the response was a
reassuring "no" an owner will not experience "poor shifting" between
the viscosity grades...

So there is mounting evidence that if your 40 shears to a 30 poor
shifting sounds plausible but according to Yamaha its false... so is
poor shifting imagined or real or just clutch drag??? well according
to my FZ8 customer Dillion poor shifting was clutch drag... he reports
smooth as butter shifts on Mobil 1 5W30 API SN at 4K miles...

quote FastGame
Just for the sake of conversation I'll say that oil shear and bad
shifting is mechanical hypochondria ...

 

[Retet]

After 50 years dealing with riding and racing customers who complained
about shift quality the clutch and not oil fixed the problem... Manufactures
warn owners that our gears can't shift smoothly if our clutch is part
way engaged... check for unwanted clutch drag...

Here are the steps how to check and eliminate unwanted clutch drag...

1 Place your bike on the center stand...

2 Start engine and establish a steady idle at 212ºF (operating temp)...

3 Squeeze in the clutch lever and shift into first gear...

4 Continue holding in the clutch lever and note if the rear wheel coast to stop or not...
if it continues spinning that's unwanted drag... adjust...

To adjust a cable equipped bike turn the small knob clock wise (out)
1/4 turn and test for clutch drag... if your bike is equipped with
hydraulics bleed system for bubbles...

Ultimately you want the rear wheel to coast to a stop when the engine
is idling and first gear selected with the clutch lever is squeezed in...

A tip on shift TECHNIQUE...
I think we are after the same thing... smooth shift without upsetting
the suspension... the secret is moving the foot quicker than clutch or
throttle... go easy with the clutch and throttle but move your foot
quick... but worry there is no such thing as too quick... its early
form of seem less shifting...

Dillion
A new FZ8 customer was experiencing notchy shifting on factory fill
Yama Lube... like you he wasn't sure if the oil was the problem... So
we called Yamaha customer relations and got an official technician on
the line and asked if there was a difference in shifting quality
between the recommended 30 or 40 weight oil??? the response was a
reassuring "no" an owner will not experience "poor shifting" between
the viscosity grades...

So there is mounting evidence that if your 40 shears to a 30 poor
shifting sounds plausible but according to Yamaha its false... so is
poor shifting imagined or real or just clutch drag??? well according
to my FZ8 customer Dillion poor shifting was clutch drag... he reports
smooth as butter shifts on Mobil 1 5W30 API SN at 4K miles...

quote FastGame
Just for the sake of conversation I'll say that oil shear and bad
shifting is mechanical hypochondria ...

I think maybe you misunderstood my original post.

I've been riding for nearly 20 years now, the last 10 on road-legal dual-sport/trail bikes, and before that, exclusively off-road on enduro bikes. I'm a very aggressive rider, and the observation of the shifter becoming steadily stiffer over the use of the engine oil is nothing new. It's simply accepted. It always has been.

I made the post to try and ascertain a more suitable oil which would last longer until the shifter gets to the inevitable point of becoming so stiff that it begins to hinder the rider (if there is one). Not to complain about a mechanical problem (of which there isn't one). I'm well aware of how to keep the correct clutch free play so that it doesn't drag whilst changing gears. The very fact that shifting becomes instantly smooth and easy again once the oil is replaced is testament that there isn't any kind of mechanical problem. It has always been this way on these types of bikes, which are ridden in the manner in which I ride them.

 

[Propflux01]

I have also experienced harder shifting as oil ages in the crankcases of air cooled Suzuki GS series bikes of the 80's. One could say it is clutch drag, etc, but does not explain the consistent disappearance the hard shifting once the engine oil is replaced. And this, among many oil change cycles, with no adjustments to the clutch.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

I think maybe you misunderstood my original post.

I do understand your post which questions what is true or not... but there are two categories of truth that shape our understanding of oil...

1)Personal truth; in a free country these are your feelings and we
believe to be true because of whatever experiences or beliefs matter
to us and to convince someone else of that truth like I can detect
shift quality of my oil...

2)Objective truth; as that which has been established as true by
virtue of large bodies of experiment and observations and Its true no
matter if we believe its true or not... (examples) There are no
significant differences in wear between 30 40 and 50 grade oils...
Either Motorcycle Specific or Auto oil will meet and exceed your
mileage expectations... Roughly 60% of total engine wear occurs during
cold start up conditions before oil can circulate through the engine...

 

[Retet]

I do understand your post which questions what is true or not... but there are two categories of truth that shape our understanding of oil...

1)Personal truth; in a free country these are your feelings and we
believe to be true because of whatever experiences or beliefs matter
to us and to convince someone else of that truth like I can detect
shift quality of my oil...

2)Objective truth; as that which has been established as true by
virtue of large bodies of experiment and observations and Its true no
matter if we believe its true or not... (examples) There are no
significant differences in wear between 30 40 and 50 grade oils...
Either Motorcycle Specific or Auto oil will meet and exceed your
mileage expectations... Roughly 60% of total engine wear occurs during
cold start up conditions before oil can circulate through the engine...

Yes, but again, what you're saying does not apply in this case.

The fact of the shift lever gaining stiffness over an oil fill is not up for debate. It IS a real thing. It is just as measurable as a large rock is measurably heavier than a small pebble. I have direct experience of it over many oil changes. You may not believe it, or it may not support your theory, but that does not change reality.

It's pretty ironic that you write a post about "personal truth" and about humans wanting to impart their beliefs onto others, whilst indirectly inferring (at least that's how it reads to me) that my direct experiences of reality are wrong, because they do not support whatever theory or belief you have in your head. Direct experience of reality beats theory 100% of the time as an arbiter of what is real and true.

I can assure you, the whole "personal truth" thing, as you like to call it, is absolutely not my game. I'm well aware of how fallible the human mind is.

 

[alarmguy]

Mobil 1 10/40 Motorcycle oil.
Im surprised with all those oils that you have not used it.
Mobil 1 Motorcycle oil (and Amsoil motorcycle) will hold their viscosity in a shared sump bike. In fact in a non shared sump bike the oil actually thickens up.

 

[FZ1]

After 50 years dealing with riding and racing customers who complained
about shift quality the clutch and not oil fixed the problem... Manufactures
warn owners that our gears can't shift smoothly if our clutch is part
way engaged... check for unwanted clutch drag...

Here are the steps how to check and eliminate unwanted clutch drag...

1 Place your bike on the center stand...

2 Start engine and establish a steady idle at 212ºF (operating temp)...

3 Squeeze in the clutch lever and shift into first gear...

4 Continue holding in the clutch lever and note if the rear wheel coast to stop or not...
if it continues spinning that's unwanted drag... adjust...

To adjust a cable equipped bike turn the small knob clock wise (out)
1/4 turn and test for clutch drag... if your bike is equipped with
hydraulics bleed system for bubbles...

Ultimately you want the rear wheel to coast to a stop when the engine
is idling and first gear selected with the clutch lever is squeezed in...

A tip on shift TECHNIQUE...
I think we are after the same thing... smooth shift without upsetting
the suspension... the secret is moving the foot quicker than clutch or
throttle... go easy with the clutch and throttle but move your foot
quick... but worry there is no such thing as too quick... its early
form of seem less shifting...

Dillion
A new FZ8 customer was experiencing notchy shifting on factory fill
Yama Lube... like you he wasn't sure if the oil was the problem... So
we called Yamaha customer relations and got an official technician on
the line and asked if there was a difference in shifting quality
between the recommended 30 or 40 weight oil??? the response was a
reassuring "no" an owner will not experience "poor shifting" between
the viscosity grades...

So there is mounting evidence that if your 40 shears to a 30 poor
shifting sounds plausible but according to Yamaha its false... so is
poor shifting imagined or real or just clutch drag??? well according
to my FZ8 customer Dillion poor shifting was clutch drag... he reports
smooth as butter shifts on Mobil 1 5W30 API SN at 4K miles...

quote FastGame
Just for the sake of conversation I'll say that oil shear and bad
shifting is mechanical hypochondria ...

That was interesting, thanks.