Looking to start a set of UOA's :Powerstroke 6.0

[NattyBoh]

Hey guys,
I got my first diesel, its a 2006 f250 with a 6.0l that has 36,600 on it. Im going to change out all fluids etc etc soon, but I want to see what the OCIs I can get out of it are. If I can go further, then thats great. I can use the more expensive oil and off set the costs some.

How should I start? Do I sample the oil thats in there now? I have no idea on whats in there now nor the mileage on it. Im going to run Rotella T6 5w40 with all motorcraft filters. Im also going to be running an oil bypass filter, which shows GREAT filtration along with the stock filter. Im not installing the bypass filter for extended OCIs ( as the HPOPs and injectors are hard on the oil ) but Im adding it for more filtration.

So all in all, how should I go about it? How do I get sample kits etc?

Thanks guys!

 

[Kuato]

Congrats on the new vehicle.

IMHO since you don't know what's in there and don't know how long it was there, a UOA on this oil would mean little, except to perhaps show if there is coolant or other contamination.

I use sample kits from Blackstone. http://www.blackstone-labs.com/faq.php Other members use other services, but in general it's probably best to use the same service each time for consistency.

To start, I'd go with the factory recommendation for your OCI. Have the sample tested, and then begin to extend the OCI based on the results. Of course you will get numerous suggestions as to how to go about it...and which oil to use...

 

[Danno]

Good luck with the 6.0 Liter. The worst engine in my fleet. I have over 300. As soon as you start losing coolant, the EGR cooler has failed. An expensive repair. This engine will go down as one of the worse if not the worse engines Ford has ever coengineered with International. The International version - VT365 - is called our "repair 365 days of the year" engine. Do a search on "class action 6.0 Liter". Sorry to be a downer but best to go in eyes wide open.
Ford claims that the cetane is not high enough in NA fuel for this engine to run at its best. My reply is don't sell it in NA then. Total B_S.

Funny thing is I watched them being built in Alabama in 2004. Looked pretty cool at the time.Intersting thing was that the crankshafts for the Ford were balanced and better machined than the VT365. Probably higher revs on the Ford.
Reality bites.
Yes..I am bitter.

 

[Chris142]

I agree with Danno. The 6.0 is a pile and an embarasment to ford and I.H. Plan on constant egr coolers,headgasket and turbo failures. And don't add a tuner. That just makes failures even more common.

 

[Zaedock]

Save the money on UOA's for ARP head studs and an EGR valve/cooler delete.

 

[hounddog]

They did a 6.0 egr/head repair on TRUCKS on tv. They said its not IF head gasket/egr fail its WHEN. All kinds of egr delete,reman heads,a download program for the items deleted. They said labor for a experienced tech would be in the 22/25 hours plus several grand in parts. Unload it to someone else.

 

[Donald]

I have no experience with the engine. T6 is great oil, as it T. I looked into a bypass filter and I think its solving a problem that does not exist. And you have hoses that if they failed would be catastrophic for the engine. Genos Garage which is big into truck diesel stuff does not sell them because they are not needed.

I would sample the T6 at 7500 and see where you stand. The first fill of T6 is bound to clean out some stuff from previous oil, so the true reading may not come until the 2nd oil fill. If you are going to do a bunch of UOAs, get a 10 pack of sample kits from Polaris.

 

[NattyBoh]

Thanks guys. There are still tons of people on forums running original stuff. I think it depends on how you treat it. The injectors are very finicky on the oil cleanliness and the extra filtration of the oil is much needed. People have shown how much more the bypass filters out.

The egr will be gone here shortly, and head studs will be done with in the year. These 6.0s arent BAD but not great. Maintenance is key as many many have said with these. People are making crazy streetable power with these all day after the studs are done, Im not too worried about it.

 

[Danno]

Glad to see you did research before buying. Good luck with it and let us know how it works for you.

 

[Kuato]

Oh, and my wife's from Towson. "NattyBoh" will crack her up!

 

[dnewton3]

Nattyboh - you have a unique situation here, and I'm going to make some very specific recommendations.


1st - forget the UOAs. You need to focus elsewhere to get good longevity out of your rig.

2nd - forget the oil bypass filter; it's not going to save your engine one iota if "normal" OCIs are your intent


The MAIN problem with the 6.0L PSD is the oil cooler. Or, more specifically, it is an oil/coolant heat exchanger that is meant to heat and cool the oil to maintain the oil temp, at the proper engine temp, as managed by the coolant system. It is a liquid/liquid heat exchanger.

When the coolant clogs into the tiny heat-exchange passages, it blocks coolant flow in much of the system. It will slow/stop the coolant in the oil cooler, which causes the oil to overheat. Over-heated oil is the cause of injection issues, and also has effect on the o-rings, etc in the fuel HEUI system. And because the coolant in this part of the system is run in series (not parallel), the really slow (stagnant) flow retards the flow in the EGR cooler, which then causes the cooler to overheat and crack, and/or the heads get too hot and the torque-to-yield head bolts (of which there are only 4 per cylinder) stretch, and you end up with head gasket leaks. It is a vicious, terrible self-fulfilling cycle. On top of all this, the oil (which is now too hot) causes issues in the turbo, coking the oil and sticking the vanes.

In short, the incredibly tight passages in the coolant side of the oil/coolant heat exchanger plug up, and it's downhill from there ... If you can avoid this, you can avoid assured problems down the road.

I have seen this personally happen to my neighbor's 2005 PSD. It's all real, and it's all really expensive to fix! He went through two turbos, one EGR cooler, one oil cooler, and a host of other minor corresponding fixes. He finally got rid of it at under 100k miles; it was killing his wallet with repairs. Most all of which could have been avoided with the right knowledge.


Ok - now for the good news ...
You only have 36k miles on your rig! It is quite possible that you can avoid ALL of this by making some changes to your coolant and oil systems.

Option 1 - immediately go out and get a bypass filter FOR YOUR COOLANT SYSTEM. Forget the oil bypass filter; that is not the part of the system that is the root cause. You need to filter the coolant! This option presumes that you're going to leave the rest of the system alone. If you can do a coolant fluid flush, and then install a coolant filter, you might avoid all of this from ever happening. This option is reasonable in cost; perhaps a few hundred dollars including the flush.

Option 2 - there are products by various vendors out there (many good ones - I have no favorite) that simply reroute the entire OEM system. Instead of running an oil/coolant exchanger, that component is removed, and an air/oil cooler is installed to take care of cooling the oil. The benefit of not having those tight coolant passages results in much better coolant flow for the rest of the system (likely no EGR overheating) and also brings the oil temps down where they belong. This option is much more expensive though; probably nearing two grand if you buy all the needed components. You can also delete the EGR completely, but I'm not a fan of this; if you fix the root cause (the oil heat exchanger) then the EGR cooler getting overheated should never be an issue.


The bottom line is this; oil filtration is NOT the problem with the "sick-point-oh". It's root problem is the oil/coolant heat exchanger. Take care of that an most of those other issues (cracked EGR, stretched bolts and blown gaskets) will not happen.

On last thing - the PSD can certainly be "tuned" up with a programmer, but I think that is asking for problems. The engine (as I already stated) is OK when stock, but a lot of fueling will result in excessive cylinder pressure that just taxes the heck out of the head-bolts. Again, there are only 4 per cyl; most other engines have five or six per cyl. Over fueling the engine past OEM criteria is asking for head bolt problems.

If you follow this advice, it will pay you many more dividends than any oil bypass filter could ever hope to do. An oil bypass filter will NEVER stop the problems on the coolant side of the equation!


You are in a good situation of sorts; you have a low mileage vehicle that likely is on the front-end of the problem, and dealing with it now will likely prevent it from cascading down into thousands of dollars of repairs later. Fix the heat exchange issue, leave the power stock, use any decent dino oil at OEM OCIs, and it will last a LONG, LONG time. Your money would be MUCH better spent addressing these issues rather than using an oil bypass filter.

 

[ccdhowell]

Yep, dnewton is correct. Ford replaced the egr cooler twice, the head gaskets and two turbos on my '07 6.0L, all for free, before I sick of the down time and took it to a reputable independent repair shop to "fix" it. At 53,000 (roughly) they installed ARP head studs, deleted the EGR valve and cooler, installed a coolant filter and tuned it to a nice, mild towing tune. I now have roughly 93,000 miles and have had zero additional problems from the engine. At the time I did not know about replacing the oil cooler and apparently the shop I chose didn't either, that may be a better alternative, especially if you are in an area where emissions are checked; I am not thankfully.

BTW I was amazed at how much sand the coolant filter captured in the first 3 months of use. I cut open the filter and strung it out so it could dry; it contained much, much more sand than I ever would have thought possible.

 

[roadrunner1]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Nattyboh - you have a unique situation here, and I'm going to make some very specific recommendations.


1st - forget the UOAs. You need to focus elsewhere to get good longevity out of your rig.

2nd - forget the oil bypass filter; it's not going to save your engine one iota if "normal" OCIs are your intent




The MAIN problem with the 6.0L PSD is the oil cooler. Or, more specifically, it is an oil/coolant heat exchanger that is meant to heat and cool the oil to maintain the oil temp, at the proper engine temp, as managed by the coolant system. It is a liquid/liquid heat exchanger.

When the coolant clogs into the tiny heat-exchange passages, it blocks coolant flow in much of the system. It will slow/stop the coolant in the oil cooler, which causes the oil to overheat. Over-heated oil is the cause of injection issues, and also has effect on the o-rings, etc in the fuel HEUI system. And because the coolant in this part of the system is run in series (not parallel), the really slow (stagnant) flow retards the flow in the EGR cooler, which then causes the cooler to overheat and crack, and/or the heads get too hot and the torque-to-yield head bolts (of which there are only 4 per cylinder) stretch, and you end up with head gasket leaks. It is a vicious, terrible self-fulfilling cycle. On top of all this, the oil (which is now too hot) causes issues in the turbo, coking the oil and sticking the vanes.

In short, the incredibly tight passages in the coolant side of the oil/coolant heat exchanger plug up, and it's downhill from there ... If you can avoid this, you can avoid assured problems down the road.

I have seen this personally happen to my neighbor's 2005 PSD. It's all real, and it's all really expensive to fix! He went through two turbos, one EGR cooler, one oil cooler, and a host of other minor corresponding fixes. He finally got rid of it at under 100k miles; it was killing his wallet with repairs. Most all of which could have been avoided with the right knowledge.


Ok - now for the good news ...
You only have 36k miles on your rig! It is quite possible that you can avoid ALL of this by making some changes to your coolant and oil systems.

Option 1 - immediately go out and get a bypass filter FOR YOUR COOLANT SYSTEM. Forget the oil bypass filter; that is not the part of the system that is the root cause. You need to filter the coolant! This option presumes that you're going to leave the rest of the system alone. If you can do a coolant fluid flush, and then install a coolant filter, you might avoid all of this from ever happening. This option is reasonable in cost; perhaps a few hundred dollars including the flush.

Option 2 - there are products by various vendors out there (many good ones - I have no favorite) that simply reroute the entire OEM system. Instead of running an oil/coolant exchanger, that component is removed, and an air/oil cooler is installed to take care of cooling the oil. The benefit of not having those tight coolant passages results in much better coolant flow for the rest of the system (likely no EGR overheating) and also brings the oil temps down where they belong. This option is much more expensive though; probably nearing two grand if you buy all the needed components. You can also delete the EGR completely, but I'm not a fan of this; if you fix the root cause (the oil heat exchanger) then the EGR cooler getting overheated should never be an issue.


The bottom line is this; oil filtration is NOT the problem with the "sick-point-oh". It's root problem is the oil/coolant heat exchanger. Take care of that an most of those other issues (cracked EGR, stretched bolts and blown gaskets) will not happen.

On last thing - the PSD can certainly be "tuned" up with a programmer, but I think that is asking for problems. The engine (as I already stated) is OK when stock, but a lot of fueling will result in excessive cylinder pressure that just taxes the heck out of the head-bolts. Again, there are only 4 per cyl; most other engines have five or six per cyl. Over fueling the engine past OEM criteria is asking for head bolt problems.

If you follow this advice, it will pay you many more dividends than any oil bypass filter could ever hope to do. An oil bypass filter will NEVER stop the problems on the coolant side of the equation!


You are in a good situation of sorts; you have a low mileage vehicle that likely is on the front-end of the problem, and dealing with it now will likely prevent it from cascading down into thousands of dollars of repairs later. Fix the heat exchange issue, leave the power stock, use any decent dino oil at OEM OCIs, and it will last a LONG, LONG time. Your money would be MUCH better spent addressing these issues rather than using an oil bypass filter.


Option one would be my first choice. When everything upstream of the egr cooler is in proper working order none of the mentioned failures come into play.

My current '07 6.0 haas 173,xxxmi., trouble-free, but I did add a coolant filter after flushing /back-flushing the coolant system.

Yhe best advise I can pass along is to invest in a scangauge II and monitor your coolant temp/oil temp differential. Your coolant temp should be 190f minimum, your oil temp should be no more than 15f at 65 mph on a relatively flat surface empty. Any more and you have a clogged oil cooler on the coolant side and the problems mentioned by dnewton will manifest into a nightmare.

I agree that a bypass oil filtration system would be a waste, the stock racor system is sufficiant and isn't going to net any beneficial results.

Don't let the information over-load upset your recent purchase, I've owned a 6.0 since '04, used that one and my current '07 as my work trucks and they have been the most trouble-free trucks I've owned.

 

[NattyBoh]

The oil cooler is not bad thanks to God. The temps are only 6-9 off from each other. I'm going to drain And fill with ELC CAT compliant coolant. I do have a new oil cooler here though..

I've seen what the oil bypass does. It filters out some crazy stuff and the oil looks way good at the OCI. I've heard from a lot of high horsepower local diesel builders ( MD performance diesel ) that the 6.0 injectors are complex and require very clean oil. Its cheap insurance.

I'm adding the coolant filter from IPR. check it out, looks good. And I've been running a monitor and everything is great. Temps and all.

 

[NattyBoh]

So wait.. l back to the original question. Should I start at 5k OCIs? How do I do the UOAs and send them to Blackstone? I bought a fumoto drain valve so short drains shouldn't be an issue. When taking samples how much do they need? Should I run the truck for a bit prior?

 

[dnewton3]

With the Fumoto, and the bypass, then you need to look into doing consistent UOAs and extending your drains.

There is a difference between "cheap insurance" and just plain waste. If 5k mile OCIs are you plan, I can assure you that you've fallen prey to marketing hype regarding the oil bypass filter. Regardless of what you're being told, you need to look at real data.

If you want to add the bypass as a toy, for bragging rights, or just for fun, then by all means go for it; there is nothing wrong with emotional satisfaction. But you're fooling yourself if you think it's going to make any difference in longevity of the engine or HEUI at 5k miles; the real world data just does not support that conclusion.

 

[NattyBoh]

No doubt I dont like to poss away money, but hear me out. From what IVe read all over these 6.0 injectors need SUPER clean oil to prevent issues down the line. The Amsoil filter is like 203 microns and the filter is BLACK.. so doesn't that mean its filters out MORE stuff?

edited: here you say that bypass filters are good along with solid UOA parameters.. ( http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post2557405 )No?

 

[roadrunner1]

What he said is with the 6.0 you cannot extend your OC long enough to get a return on your initial investment of a bypass filter, and I agree.
As I stated above the stock Racor system does a very good job of filtration.

I have no issue going the owners manual recommended 7,500 mi.OCI, but I'm completely stock,and use 10w-30 oil.

The bulk of my miles are highway, hauling weight and towing occasionally. If you're looking to extend your OCI, pull a sample at 7,500mi. and go from there, let the oil tell you how far to go.

 

[Powerstroke]

There are some excellent responses regarding the 6.0 powerstroke. I'm a Ford fan, and think the Ford super duty frames and trannys are the stout, so i knew what i was going up against with the 6.0, though i was tempted slightly to buy an 07 dodge cummins prior to my current Ford. My belief is it can be a great motor, at a monetary expense. I've owned an '04 PSD that I put 225,000 miles on. I traded it in on the '07 I have now, because I couldn't pass up the deal an old retired guy gave me. In my opinion, and based off the 8 years I've owned, lived and breathed these engines, very first thing is IF your own a budget, hit up tousley ford in white bear lake minnesota, they have the cheapest oem parts online. Get yourself a new oem oil cooler, updated STC fittings, standpipes, dummy plugs, new 20mm oem head gaskets, a heavy duty water pump from Bullet proof diesel (billet fines, not plastic like oem), BPD FICM, ARP head studs, EGR delete kit with new up-pipe, EGR valve delete, blue spring fuel pressure kit, a massive coolant flush, diesesite.com coolant filter, and fill up with CAT ELC and distilled water. Get a monitor or gauges for oil temp, and coolant temps. Edge CTS is a nice monitor to look at several vitals. Dump the 15w40 and run a 10w30, motorcraft, shell Rotella T5, amsoil OE 10w30 or ACD.

I've done all these things to my current 07 at 7500 miles, and I have 87,000 and not a single issue and I'm SCT tuned. I brought all the parts for $1600 and had a reputable diesel shop in pflugerville, TX do the install for $1800 and that included sending heads to machine shop and thoroughly going over them for flatness etc. IF you have the extra funds, you can do liked dnewton advised and go with something like bulletproofdiesel.com air-to-oil cooler heat exchanger that mounts at front of ac condenser, it removes the factory oil cooler via a nice billet block piece. The kit itself will set you back $1500, but never have to worry about the oil cooler again. In Texas, there is no emissions requirements on diesels, so many do a egr delete with no issues.

Save your money to do these items, it will save you tons of headaches down the road. I've had ford on 3 occasions, replace egr coolers and oil coolers. The EGR cooler and Ford's gold coolant is [censored]. Use only motorcraft fuel/oil filters, change your coolant filer every other oil change if your going the oem cooler route like me (change coolant filter on the first initial 500 miles). Injector failure are caused by faulty FICM which are caused by [censored] batteries, and not changing your oil. Get some good batteries. I have Nappa Group 31 1130cca industrial batteries and DC Power 220amp alternator, it will keep your FICM happy. Change the oil every 5k miles and fuel filters every 10k.

It's so nice to be able to slap 15k behind my truck and go pull Colorado mountains all day long with out overheating, blown headgaskets etc.

It's your choice, your money, but heed advice from those that have been there, learned and have the experience with these engines.

 

[NattyBoh]

I do plan on doing those. But first Im doing exhaust, blue spring, coolant filter, maybe bypass for the oil, coolant flush, hopefully the STC fitting ( if its not hard ) and oil change. Then next year Im doing ARPs, I'll look into that water pump, I have an OEM updated oil cooler here and I'll do the standpipes etc etc.