Looking for HTHS Test Results of Name Brand Oils

[theeagleflies]

I am trying to find a report that contains the HTHS ratings/results of different name brand oils preferably from the same lab; although anything would be useful rather than nothing.

Is there an industry wide standardized test for this?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Most oil manufacturers test HT/HS viscosity according to ASTM D4683:
https://www.astm.org/Standards/D4683.htm

As far as I know, most UOA labs that BITOGers use don't test for it, or if they do, it costs an arm and a leg, so nobody ever asks to have it done.

You're left with going to oil manufacturers websites and pulling the listed HT/HS values, if they publish it.

 

[oil_film_movies]

HTHS is a standard test, yes, run at 150 degrees C (about 300 F), https://www.astm.org/Standards/D5481.htm for details.

Usually found on .pdf spec sheets, google HTHS Mobil 0w40 filetypedf for example to find it.

 

[theeagleflies]

Thanks. Maybe someone put an excel sheet together already that they could share. Not sure I have the patience for drilling for and recording the findings......

 

[Quattro Pete]

Just curious, but what would be the purpose of such exercise? Is there a specific problem that you are trying to address?

 

[oil_film_movies]

If its a "229.5" (mercedes) spec oil then HTHS is equal to or greater than 3.5.
If its an SN xw30, then its 2.9-3.2, if I remember right.
Here is the definitive image, which shows minimum HTHS values for each classification, and they are typically close to that, allowed to be more:

 

[oil_film_movies]

One notable thing about HTHS, is POE oils like some Motul, Redline group V dominant oils have high HTHS for relatively average KV100 values.
For example, an Xw20 Redline oil really has the oil film thickness in the crank bearings and rings of an Xw30 because of higher HTHS.

 

[theeagleflies]

Good question...... Just wondering how the different oils compare in this category; another data point to look at.
wondering if most name brands are similar or dissimilar.

Then a good education on what the number value really means would probably be the next question.
for instance, is a .1 or .2 difference large or small? along with the question of are the numbers actually comparable between sources?
Maybe this is starting to be a Pandora's box.......

 

[theeagleflies]

thanks oil_film_movies.

In your opinion, is the 2009 data applicable for 2017?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: theeagleflies
Good question...... Just wondering how the different oils compare in this category; another data point to look at.
wondering if most name brands are similar or dissimilar.

It really depends on the purpose of the formulation. If an oil was formulated to offer better fuel economy (ILSAC GF-5 or 6, for example), then it will have a lower HT/HS viscosity. On the other hand, if an oil was formulated to meet some of the Euro specs such as ACEA A3/B4, then it'll have a high HT/HS viscosity - at least 3.5 cP.

So, for example, a 5w-30 oil meeting ILSAC GF-5 will have HT/HS of around 3.0 cP. But a 5w-30 oil designed to meet ACEA A3/B4 spec will have HT/HS of 3.5-3.6 cP, typically.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
One notable thing about HTHS, is POE oils like some Motul, Redline group V dominant oils have high HTHS for relatively average KV100 values.
For example, an Xw20 Redline oil really has the oil film thickness in the crank bearings and rings of an Xw30 because of higher HTHS.
Ah the reason I used to run true synthetics in high performance engines.
marginally low KV100 for advertised grade, but good HTHS performance.

Now that's the ticket.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: theeagleflies


Then a good education on what the number value really means would probably be the next question.
for instance, is a .1 or .2 difference large or small? along with the question of are the numbers actually comparable between sources?
Maybe this is starting to be a Pandora's box.......



Repeatability of the test is 2.48 % of the mean at 150C
Reproducability of the test is 4.19% of the mean at 150C

Essentially this means that a difference of 0.1 or 0.2 might be within the limits of the test method - and should be considered less significant. More than that would demonstrate a comparable difference.

What does that mean in the real world? A lower HTHS in a given SAE Grade has been correlated with fuel economy improvements, however dropping too low could cause wear if not properly accounted for. For example in HD oils with FA-4, the HTHS is lower for 10W30 and 5W30 grades compared to CK-4, but the oils are required to meet the same level of wear protection and have been designed accordingly.

If GF-6 ever gets around to being completed, a similar distinction on HTHS will exist between GF-6A (XW20, XW30) and GF-6B engine oils (XW16 etc)

 

[FlyPenFly]

Here's one:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...ils#Post4381732

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: theeagleflies
Good question...... Just wondering how the different oils compare in this category; another data point to look at.
wondering if most name brands are similar or dissimilar.




The one thing that struck me when I was comparing the HTHS of various 5w-30 grade synthetics is that the Pennzoil Plat/QSUD seemed to run 10% lower than the Mobil 1, Edge, etc (11 vs. 10). That was the only one that really stuck in my head. As seasons change, I may take advantage of a little thicker or thinner.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: 69GTX
The one thing that struck me when I was comparing the HTHS of various 5w-30 grade synthetics is that the Pennzoil Plat/QSUD seemed to run 10% lower than the Mobil 1, Edge, etc (11 vs. 10).

11 vs 10 ???

I think you're talking about kinematic viscosity at 100 deg C and not HT/HS viscosity....

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: theeagleflies
thanks oil_film_movies. In your opinion, is the 2009 data applicable for 2017?

Do you mean the Redline spec sheet https://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/Motor Oil PDS 5-13.pdf ????
That is from 2013, not too long ago really. Formulations from 2009 might have changed a bit, if you're looking at something that old.
In general, the polyol ester oils like Redline, as seen in the pdf file, have slightly higher HTHS values for their grade. Notice the 2.9 HTHS for their 0w20, and most other full-syn Group III/IV 0w20 ones have 2.6 or 2.7.

The greater the HTHS, the less surface area inside your engine gets metal-to-metal boundary lubrication. More hydrodynamic occurs.
But too much HTHS lowers fuel economy. Engine makers make recommendations for the grade to use, and that's really the minimum HTHS you should use.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: theeagleflies
I am trying to find a report that contains the HTHS ratings/results of different name brand oils preferably from the same lab; although anything would be useful rather than nothing.

Is there an industry wide standardized test for this?

Of course, there is a standard test, but it's not carried out by oil-analysis labs. Therefore, if the manufacturer reports it, it's there; otherwise, there is no way to obtain it.

However, CATERHAM will tell you that if you install an oil-pressure gauge, it tells you what the HTHSV is by comparing to the known values. He probably has his own empirical list of HTHSV values somewhere.

 

[Shannow]

It's motorcycle oils, but i like this.

http://syntheticperformanceoil.com/spo/pdf/study_of_motorcycle_oils.pdf

 

[WhizkidTN]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: theeagleflies
Good question...... Just wondering how the different oils compare in this category; another data point to look at.
wondering if most name brands are similar or dissimilar.

It really depends on the purpose of the formulation. If an oil was formulated to offer better fuel economy (ILSAC GF-5 or 6, for example), then it will have a lower HT/HS viscosity. On the other hand, if an oil was formulated to meet some of the Euro specs such as ACEA A3/B4, then it'll have a high HT/HS viscosity - at least 3.5 cP.

So, for example, a 5w-30 oil meeting ILSAC GF-5 will have HT/HS of around 3.0 cP. But a 5w-30 oil designed to meet ACEA A3/B4 spec will have HT/HS of 3.5-3.6 cP, typically.



It's interesting that Castrol Edge 0W-40 (Euro) oil sold in the states is ILSAC GF-5, ACEA A3/B4 and a HT/HS of 3.5 cP. It is also BMW LL-01 rated. Is this a "wonder oil"?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: WhizkidTN
It's interesting that Castrol Edge 0W-40 (Euro) oil sold in the states is ILSAC GF-5, ACEA A3/B4 and a HT/HS of 3.5 cP. It is also BMW LL-01 rated. Is this a "wonder oil"?

Edge 0w-40 does not claim ILSAC GF-5.