dnewton3
Staff member
With the right overall maintenance program, sure longer OCIs can be achieved.
I'd leave out any "additives".
I'd leave out any "additives".
??Longest OCI on 6.0 Powerstroke w/UOA to Back
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What aspect of oil chemistry is changing that is destroying HPOP injectors on exetended OCI's?
I quite honestly can't answer that question, I do know that it is/has happened.
I can answer that I have not had any injector issues with either truck I've owned. Personally it seems to be the additive packages in certain oils seem to be lacking in certain additives that is causing the problem.
From my own observation it seems to be lubes that just meet CJ-4/CI-4+ aren't sufficient in the HEUI system, a premium lube is required.
What exactly defines a "premium lube" I don't know, but evidently what I am using is working for me, Deere Plus 50 II.
I can answer that I have not had any injector issues with either truck I've owned. Personally it seems to be the additive packages in certain oils seem to be lacking in certain additives that is causing the problem.
From my own observation it seems to be lubes that just meet CJ-4/CI-4+ aren't sufficient in the HEUI system, a premium lube is required.
What exactly defines a "premium lube" I don't know, but evidently what I am using is working for me, Deere Plus 50 II.
dnewton3
Staff member
The HEUI system is often misunderstood, and susceptible to many malodies. When properly maintained, it's a very good system. Unfortunatly, because people don't understand it's full operational parameters, things are often misdiagnosed, and therefore blamed.
I'm sure that truly neglected OCIs have resulted in poor performance and injector issues; the system of course does run on oil-over-fuel. However, the is only part of the systems. Hydraulic Electric Unit Injection; the name says it all. The hydraulic is only part of the system, and yet people ignore the other very important part.
Many times the poor injector performance (slow to start, sluggish acceleration, poor fuel econony) is a result of the FCIM going bad. And many times the root cause of that is the battery voltage. This is information that has been around for many years now, but it's easier for some "shade tree" guys to blame the easy stuff; blame the oil. I'm not calling anyone out here, but I'm pointing this out because some would easily rush to judgement without being able to articulate the full circumstances around HEUI. When battery voltage is weak and/or charging system amperage cannot keep up with demand, the voltage to the FCIM drops and that in turn causes the injector voltage to drop, resulting in sluggish response and/or outright injector failures. Or, quite often, the FCIM itself will eventually fail. Most often, we think of electronic failures as "all or nothing" when it just "dies" a sudden death. But the FCIM more often degrades slowly, sometime so slowly that it's not noticible to the driver over many, many months.
There is a reasonably articulate article in the new Diesel Power magazine; it's a decent read about this very topic. It rightly points out that weak batteries are the root cause of the FCIM degredation, and even after you replace the batteries, the problem lingers because the FCIM is compromised. People will replace the batteries, and then blame the only thing that pops into their head; blame the oil.
I'm not saying that is the case in all PSDs. I'm just pointing out that "extended OCIs" (lube related issues) are not the only cause of injection issues with HEUI. In fact, if the oil change extension is well controlled (solid UOA parameters, bypass filtration, etc) it's more likely an issue with the FCIM.
I'm sure that truly neglected OCIs have resulted in poor performance and injector issues; the system of course does run on oil-over-fuel. However, the is only part of the systems. Hydraulic Electric Unit Injection; the name says it all. The hydraulic is only part of the system, and yet people ignore the other very important part.
Many times the poor injector performance (slow to start, sluggish acceleration, poor fuel econony) is a result of the FCIM going bad. And many times the root cause of that is the battery voltage. This is information that has been around for many years now, but it's easier for some "shade tree" guys to blame the easy stuff; blame the oil. I'm not calling anyone out here, but I'm pointing this out because some would easily rush to judgement without being able to articulate the full circumstances around HEUI. When battery voltage is weak and/or charging system amperage cannot keep up with demand, the voltage to the FCIM drops and that in turn causes the injector voltage to drop, resulting in sluggish response and/or outright injector failures. Or, quite often, the FCIM itself will eventually fail. Most often, we think of electronic failures as "all or nothing" when it just "dies" a sudden death. But the FCIM more often degrades slowly, sometime so slowly that it's not noticible to the driver over many, many months.
There is a reasonably articulate article in the new Diesel Power magazine; it's a decent read about this very topic. It rightly points out that weak batteries are the root cause of the FCIM degredation, and even after you replace the batteries, the problem lingers because the FCIM is compromised. People will replace the batteries, and then blame the only thing that pops into their head; blame the oil.
I'm not saying that is the case in all PSDs. I'm just pointing out that "extended OCIs" (lube related issues) are not the only cause of injection issues with HEUI. In fact, if the oil change extension is well controlled (solid UOA parameters, bypass filtration, etc) it's more likely an issue with the FCIM.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
The HEUI system is often misunderstood, and susceptible to many malodies. When properly maintained, it's a very good system. Unfortunatly, because people don't understand it's full operational parameters, things are often misdiagnosed, and therefore blamed.
I'm sure that truly neglected OCIs have resulted in poor performance and injector issues; the system of course does run on oil-over-fuel. However, the is only part of the systems. Hydraulic Electric Unit Injection; the name says it all. The hydraulic is only part of the system, and yet people ignore the other very important part.
Many times the poor injector performance (slow to start, sluggish acceleration, poor fuel econony) is a result of the FCIM going bad. And many times the root cause of that is the battery voltage. This is information that has been around for many years now, but it's easier for some "shade tree" guys to blame the easy stuff; blame the oil. I'm not calling anyone out here, but I'm pointing this out because some would easily rush to judgement without being able to articulate the full circumstances around HEUI. When battery voltage is weak and/or charging system amperage cannot keep up with demand, the voltage to the FCIM drops and that in turn causes the injector voltage to drop, resulting in sluggish response and/or outright injector failures. Or, quite often, the FCIM itself will eventually fail. Most often, we think of electronic failures as "all or nothing" when it just "dies" a sudden death. But the FCIM more often degrades slowly, sometime so slowly that it's not noticible to the driver over many, many months.
There is a reasonably articulate article in the new Diesel Power magazine; it's a decent read about this very topic. It rightly points out that weak batteries are the root cause of the FCIM degredation, and even after you replace the batteries, the problem lingers because the FCIM is compromised. People will replace the batteries, and then blame the only thing that pops into their head; blame the oil.
I'm not saying that is the case in all PSDs. I'm just pointing out that "extended OCIs" (lube related issues) are not the only cause of injection issues with HEUI. In fact, if the oil change extension is well controlled (solid UOA parameters, bypass filtration, etc) it's more likely an issue with the FCIM.
I agree with your entire post, but would also like to add what I was attempting to explain in my above post is that there seems to be some brands of oil that seem to be much more trouble-free than others.
There are several different oil additives available to address "injector stiction", and from what I have read they seem to be somewhat successful in acomplishing what they are advertised to do. The unknown is are they actually masking a low voltage FICM issue?
There are many who have had to have injector replacement, how many are oil related are unknown, but as we know here there are many different avenues one can travel to reach the CJ-4 spec. More of one additive and less of another "could" be causing injector issues.
There are many 6.0 guys swearing by switching to synthetic lube is the cure-all to injector issues, and I for one have never experienced an injector issue in nearly nine years over two trucks using 15w-40/10w-30 Plus 50.
After reading much about this issue several years ago I made the switch to a 5w-40 syn, after three consectitive runs with successive UOA's I came to the conclusion that my engine actually had higher wear numbers with syn.
Thats when I made the switch to 10w-30, and quite honestly I have no reason to look anywhere else for a lube choice, excellent UOA's, reasonabely priced, and good year around performance.
My current 6.0 ('07) as my previous one are my work vehichle, towing occasionally, but loading the bed up to 4,000 lbs. and running 150 miles down the highway in 90`f summer heat. The combination of my usage with lube choice is working in my application.
The HEUI system is often misunderstood, and susceptible to many malodies. When properly maintained, it's a very good system. Unfortunatly, because people don't understand it's full operational parameters, things are often misdiagnosed, and therefore blamed.
I'm sure that truly neglected OCIs have resulted in poor performance and injector issues; the system of course does run on oil-over-fuel. However, the is only part of the systems. Hydraulic Electric Unit Injection; the name says it all. The hydraulic is only part of the system, and yet people ignore the other very important part.
Many times the poor injector performance (slow to start, sluggish acceleration, poor fuel econony) is a result of the FCIM going bad. And many times the root cause of that is the battery voltage. This is information that has been around for many years now, but it's easier for some "shade tree" guys to blame the easy stuff; blame the oil. I'm not calling anyone out here, but I'm pointing this out because some would easily rush to judgement without being able to articulate the full circumstances around HEUI. When battery voltage is weak and/or charging system amperage cannot keep up with demand, the voltage to the FCIM drops and that in turn causes the injector voltage to drop, resulting in sluggish response and/or outright injector failures. Or, quite often, the FCIM itself will eventually fail. Most often, we think of electronic failures as "all or nothing" when it just "dies" a sudden death. But the FCIM more often degrades slowly, sometime so slowly that it's not noticible to the driver over many, many months.
There is a reasonably articulate article in the new Diesel Power magazine; it's a decent read about this very topic. It rightly points out that weak batteries are the root cause of the FCIM degredation, and even after you replace the batteries, the problem lingers because the FCIM is compromised. People will replace the batteries, and then blame the only thing that pops into their head; blame the oil.
I'm not saying that is the case in all PSDs. I'm just pointing out that "extended OCIs" (lube related issues) are not the only cause of injection issues with HEUI. In fact, if the oil change extension is well controlled (solid UOA parameters, bypass filtration, etc) it's more likely an issue with the FCIM.
I agree with your entire post, but would also like to add what I was attempting to explain in my above post is that there seems to be some brands of oil that seem to be much more trouble-free than others.
There are several different oil additives available to address "injector stiction", and from what I have read they seem to be somewhat successful in acomplishing what they are advertised to do. The unknown is are they actually masking a low voltage FICM issue?
There are many who have had to have injector replacement, how many are oil related are unknown, but as we know here there are many different avenues one can travel to reach the CJ-4 spec. More of one additive and less of another "could" be causing injector issues.
There are many 6.0 guys swearing by switching to synthetic lube is the cure-all to injector issues, and I for one have never experienced an injector issue in nearly nine years over two trucks using 15w-40/10w-30 Plus 50.
After reading much about this issue several years ago I made the switch to a 5w-40 syn, after three consectitive runs with successive UOA's I came to the conclusion that my engine actually had higher wear numbers with syn.
Thats when I made the switch to 10w-30, and quite honestly I have no reason to look anywhere else for a lube choice, excellent UOA's, reasonabely priced, and good year around performance.
My current 6.0 ('07) as my previous one are my work vehichle, towing occasionally, but loading the bed up to 4,000 lbs. and running 150 miles down the highway in 90`f summer heat. The combination of my usage with lube choice is working in my application.
In response to my own post above, I somewhat got off of the original topic of this thread. My own UOA's clearly show I can extend my OCI, however with the hysteria of injector failure I am somewhat reluctant to.
My own reasons for UOA is to track engine health, at one point I caught an injector o-ring failure with fuel dilution at 4%. Personally my feelings on OCI are this, use the proper API rated lube at the manufacturers prescribed interval and forget about it.
My own reasons for UOA is to track engine health, at one point I caught an injector o-ring failure with fuel dilution at 4%. Personally my feelings on OCI are this, use the proper API rated lube at the manufacturers prescribed interval and forget about it.
dnewton3
Staff member
You are certainly on the right track. I just think it's so hard to define why injectors fail, and many people blame the easy stuff; the oil.
I know for a fact the FCIM can be a contributing factor; my neighbor is experiencing that right now. He has the exact failure mode I spoke of; poor battery conditions degarded the FCIM, then he put in new batteries, but the improvement was minimal. He just cannot afford a new FCIM yet, so he suffers with sluggish performance, poor economy and long cranking starts. No amount of synthetic oil is going to fix this.
Will synthetics improve the stiction issue? Perhaps, but since I've not seen this problem develop in the 6.0 PSDs I'm around, I cannot comment on the potential effectiveness of the syns.
I know for a fact the FCIM can be a contributing factor; my neighbor is experiencing that right now. He has the exact failure mode I spoke of; poor battery conditions degarded the FCIM, then he put in new batteries, but the improvement was minimal. He just cannot afford a new FCIM yet, so he suffers with sluggish performance, poor economy and long cranking starts. No amount of synthetic oil is going to fix this.
Will synthetics improve the stiction issue? Perhaps, but since I've not seen this problem develop in the 6.0 PSDs I'm around, I cannot comment on the potential effectiveness of the syns.
Well,couldn't sleep so i'll bring this one back from the dead,aside from te 7.3 van i got my self a second 2006 6.0 psd van,first year ran amsoil ame 15w40,with 15k oci then second year and a half shaeffers 9000 on 15k oci both oils perform great on uoa but amsoil used 2qts per 15k,thats when i switched to shaeffers 9000,now i run 15k without using not one bit of oil.i'm at 200k mark without any injector failure(hope i dont curse it).i use shaeffer diesel treat or stanadyne perf treat with one ounce of tcw3 per galon of fuel for the past 5 years to bring back some lubricity,so far its been good to me.the two cycle oil has to be tc-w3 since its an ashless formulation and it doesnt get the injectors tips dirty,hope it helps!! Roderick
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