Latest on the UAW Bailout

[jsharp]

Topic heading to more accurately reflect what the bailout is really about. Some highlights - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081211/ap_on_go_co/congress_autos Prospects dim for $14 billion auto industry rescue McConnell said the measure "isn't nearly tough enough." The Kentucky Republican also called for a different bill - one that would force U.S. automakers to slash wages and benefits to bring them in line with Japanese carmakers Nissan, Toyota and Honda - in return for any federal aid. That approach was virtually certain to be a nonstarter among Democrats who count labor unions among their strongest supporters. I especially like how they've loaded it up with even more unrelated spending including bailouts for mass transit agencies and pay raises for judges. This thing needs to be killed. Sink or swim boys. That's what the rest of us in private industry are faced with.

 

[Pablo]

Oh it hasn't even begun yet..... Where was this backbone in the House and where was this backbone a few months ago?

 

[kingrob]

 Quote:

McConnell said the measure "isn't nearly tough enough." The Kentucky Republican also called for a different bill - one that would force U.S. automakers to slash wages and benefits to bring them in line with Japanese carmakers Nissan, Toyota and Honda - in return for any federal aid.

Smart man.

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That approach was virtually certain to be a nonstarter among Democrats who count labor unions among their strongest supporters.

Good luck, especially in the VERY near future.

 

[jsharp]

 Originally Posted By: Pablo

Oh it hasn't even begun yet..... Where was this backbone in the House and where was this backbone a few months ago?

It's a good question. I do think you'll find a number of names that voted NO on the bankers bailout are also against this one. I know my congress-critter is one of them. Certainly not enough of them though.

 

[Johnny]

What does mass transit and judges have to do with the Big 3? That's what I love about any funding by congress. Let's see, we need a bill for 4 billion for I-94 road construction, wait, read the fine print on page 468, 1 million of that is to save 4 million chickens in Arkansas.

 

[BearZDefect]

jsharp, I think your topic heading sums it up. Must every player in the game make concessions except them? What kind of negotiating is that? That's what it looks like to me, but what do I know?

 

[Gary Allan]

Folks ..as much as it's en vogue for UAW bashing ..I think that it's sorta like bashing the residents because they happen to be living in a Super Fund site after the viable enterprise closed up shop and moved. The difference being that the shop never closed up and moved. Now that the well has run dry for the company, the effects of their leftovers are coming due.

 

[bcossa2001]

I don't necessarily "bash" the UAW, but I think it's a fact that the high wages and benefits that the Big 3 paid are a significant contribution to their demise. It's a fair question--do you blame the Big 3 for accepting the negotiated contract with the UAW? Or do you blame the UAW for accepting the negotiated contract with Big 3?? Do you blame who wrote the contract or who agreed to it? I still have not seen any rational analysis of what would happen if GM/Chrysler went bankrupt. I read lots of doom and gloom (and the doom and gloom may be accurate) but I have not seen any in depth analysis of what would happen past the "millions would lose their jobs and no one would buy cars". Maybe it is too complicated to analyze.

 

[parimento1]

[censored] and the scandal with the illinois governor is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[dkryan]

Gary, Is your response anything like, "now, let's not blame those poor UAW folks! After all, they've got to get "theirs" while they can?" This [censored] reminds me of 1984. I had a friend who was an accountant for GM at the Norwood plant outside of Cincy. I asked him, "Kirk, why leave such a cush job at GM?" Kirk said, "Doug, there were no plans for future models (1984-1985) sent to this plant in 1983. The handwriting was on the wall." Sure enough, in late 1984, GM announced they were closing the plant. Now, this plant had employed four (4) full shifts per 24-hour day. How was that possible? By UAW calculations, it was quite simple. That plant had so much absenteeism due to workers calling in "sick," (only to be seen at the local watering hole that same day) that they were forced to employ an entire shift just to fill in for all of the "sick" workers on the other three shifts. The funny thing was (laugh now, UAW), after GM announced the plant closing and the UAW finally took it seriously, absenteeism at that plant dropped almost overnight by 95%! What a surprise! The UAW announced, "see what we can do GM?" GM's response? "Too little, way too late!" The plant closed. So did the local watering holes. Go figure. Let all three of the "big three" go bankrupt. The end of socialist labor is dead. Start over. Let's start rewarding quality and productivity.

 

[parimento1]

[censored] it the rest of my rant got deleted! As I was saying if they are gonna cut the union workers pay and benefits let the management get their pay cut as well! It's only fair. I know the union milked the automakers dry and they should be forced renegotiate or be left of in the cold holding their *****. But management should also be forced to compromise, this will help as well, since some higher ups make the salary of like 20 workers. bot line is that the dems get kick backs from the union I am sure, this is why they want a blind bailout with no concessions from the union. I am sick and tired of these crooked politicians and well all know that [censored] from illinois is just the tip of the iceberg. they should sell him a seat in the local penitentiary.

 

[LargeCarManX2]

I have a friend whom worked for US Air for 20 years. When the Airline troubles hit, year after year, the union accepted pay and benefit cuts. Even after all of these cuts, the Airline threatened to go bankrupt. After wearing down the union, US Air bought another airline and merged. My friend, he left the airline business after 20 years and is now cutting trees for a living. He only had 10 years left to full retirement. The UAW contract must be worked out somehow. A good way to do this is to tie future raises to company profits. Everyone must make a concession and work back towards a profitable future. A great mediator needs to step in between these folks and solve these issues quickly.

 

[cousincletus]

It's just the race to the bottom mentality that will eventually kill the middle class in this country as we know it. When it's all done, we will look back on it and wonder why did we let this happen. Don't kid yourselves, there will never be a shortage of cheap labor, and we have to protect American jobs, high wages and do something about all this "free trade". The USA has been a dumping ground for cheap foreign products too long. I'm surprised so many on this forum just don't get it.

 

[mstrjon32]

cousincletus, in the past weeks I've just given up all hope. I think that the percentage of people in this country that can't see more than 5 minutes ahead of themselves, coupled with a hugely undeserving sense of self-importance and a me first attitude, and outright greed, has grown out of control. This mess didn't start because people bought houses they could afford or supported American industries. This happened because everyone wants it all, right now, and they want to pay as little as possible for it. Not even a remote sense of the impact that has on our (and I mean all of our) future. Who cares about anyone but themselves anymore? I've got my Toyota, screw you GM, right? You know what? I'm just going to stop writing because my blood pressure is increasing sharply.

 

[Gary Allan]

 Quote:

Gary, Is your response anything like, "now, let's not blame those poor UAW folks! After all, they've got to get "theirs" while they can?"

No ..I don't think that it is. It's saying "where are the funds to afford the benefits that the company agreed to pay?". If they aren't there now ..and more than enough cash surely went through the enterprise, then that money must have been placed in other hands. It's was placed in the hands someone in either dividends or stock options or anywhere but where it needed to be to fund the TOTALLY KNOWN future legacy costs. There are high rises full of people that project just those types of cost analysis. So ..it was with 100% premeditation that equities were leveraged, dividends paid ..options exercised ...all resulting in shortfalls of promised and agreed to benefits. How do you regard liars and thieves? Heroes? Are you someone who allows our finest educated and highest paid citizens to purposely welsh on agreements? Do you do it routinely, yourself, to your advantage and to deny another that which you promised them? Is that the standard of conduct that you were raised with and how you were taught to treat agreements? Something to be circumvented if you can get away with it??? I surely never learned those lessons. Now about wages. I honestly say that I'd have no desire to do the work of the assembly worker for the wages that he/she gets for it. It is what one would expect one to make in manufacturing. The wages are not TOO HIGH. The problem is that the idle workforce is TOO BIG.

 

[digitalSniperX1]

Oh jeeze, UAW members, pure as the driven snow. A flock of sheep misguided and mistreated by their shepherds. Spare us your focused indignation for the leaders and stockholders of GM. The UAW had power, and still has power, and they showed that yesterday (as I just read and heard from UAW members I personally know very well). That "bailout" money represented a little more meat they can pick off the carcass and they could barely contain their salivating. So they decided not to budge, not even an inch.

 

[Gary Allan]

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Oh jeeze, UAW members, pure as the driven snow. A flock of sheep misguided and mistreated by their shepherds.

Who said that?

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Spare us your focused indignation for the leaders and stockholders of GM.

Why should I? If the enterprise could not sustain the agreed to conditions of the contract, they should never have agreed to it. They should have sustained a strike if need be. Obviously, they didn't and agreeing to the conditions was in the best interests of the company. Now we know ..as Delphi and Bethlehem Steel ..and all the others ..they agreed to the conditions to profit today and not fulfill the agreement in the future. It was to allow them an exit strategy that would leave the public shoring up the shortfall in pensions after they squeezed the life out of the place. Do you offer rationalization or intellectualization ..or denial in justification for these agreements being reneged upon? Would you do this if you could to people that you agree to terms of specific performance? What's happening here is that those who are "more aloft", so to speak, are feeling that they're "entitled" to more. Time to dump more balast!!! Whomever that may be. The UAW is the last annoying bastion of middle class security anchored in stationary worth. How can you have a floating population to "ditch" at will with such a stumbling block in the way?

 

[digitalSniperX1]

Intellectualizing the obvious is a hard thing to do. You know what it is, but I'll use the time to reiterate. On one side you have the UAW who have since the 1960's, protected by worker's rights laws, who've essentially with its clenched fist tactics and demands, ensured a non-productive work force leaving them with a false sense of accomplishment. The only thing they've accomplished is having made for themselves equal partners both complicit in the impending demise of these once great companies. On the other side you have management whose response could be summarized by: "We have a captive market, and our competitors experience the same labor pressures. We'll simply force the required sacrifices on the consumer." Enter the 1970's their once captive market now being eroded, slowly. Fast forward to the 1990's where economic globalization is well underway. A force that in theory should elevate the combined standards of living for everyone capable of and involved in the game. Of course theory often requires a perfect system, one that is often unrealizable. The results of the two parties above took far too long to get on the boat. The globalization of business and the competition that it brings demands they change.

 

[Gary Allan]

I'll concede to most of the aforementioned criticisms of the auto industry. It's been a jobs program for a long time. What you're not explaining is why it's always the worker who loses in the deal? That is, I truly doubt that you'll follow any of the carriers of the still active management and point out that they were part of the major loser crowd that allowed the simpleton sweathogs to make too much money and demand too many benefits. I actually think you'll applaud them for managing to keep the thing afloat ..leverage all the equity out of them ..and leave the slugs high and dry and getting the socialized shortfalls in the pensions picked up by the public. ..but that's just my speculation ..

 

[digitalSniperX1]

No doubt, the workers are all too often the low hanging fruit whereas upper management thinks they add value when they receive million dollar bonuses justifying it by having laid off 10% of their workforce. They suck. In all too many cases they suck. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. Now, how are they to be held accountable? Not sure about that one but I won't give into a simple fire them approach since I'm not sure that solves anything. Perhaps an approach begins with demanding first they be ethical and forcing them to adhere to the same pay for performance standards that all employees should be subject to, especially them.