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Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
You're ignoring the fact that many engines were fine until the SM oils came out. Are you really saying it's coincidence that many engines with plenty miles on them mysteriously failed after running an SM oil due to metallurgy issues?
In the turbo Buick world, we saw the same thing happen. Not all failed, in fact many more survived than failed but you can't overlook it when perfectly healthy engines started failing when the only variable you changed was the oil.
I'm not sure why you hate older American cars but the easier and cheaper to modify is very true. It took me $200 to go from high 13s to high 12s. Under $1,500 to run deep in the 11s. And this is with a 6 banger. You still have the Fox bodies and LSx guys that would walk all over imports in a dollar per hp race. Let's not mention the old Mopars, Fords, and Chevy big blocks from the 60s in slightly modded form.
I'm not ignoring it, I just don't believe the oil is what needs fixing in the situation I quoted.
For this discussion I don't care about horsepower-per-dollar modification comparisons, neither do the API people, neither do most Joe Average folks who buy a Jeep to drive the kids to school. *If* I had chosen an American family vehicle with such "classic" engineering and it ground itself to engine replacement in
Quoting quarter mile times etc... it's clear that you've got a special-interest vehicle. Feel free to run whatever special interest fluids you want in it and argue that API SM isn't fit for special interest, modified (old) vehicles.
Old, special interest technology that will cause engine failure in a single OCI has no place in a modern grocery-getter.
Don't mix "Mopars from the 60s" and "I can get into the 11s with $1500" with a 2009 mom's taxi.
My beef isn't particularly with fans of old American cars (although I don't share the interest), it's with the continuance of out-dated, sub-par engineering and specifications by the American car companies in new models. I'm not a fan of American cars old or new as a result. Last I checked, they weren't selling Jeeps at bargain basement prices which would account for poor metallurgy specs and no advancements in engine technology. All the while we're trying to reduce pollution and carbon footprint and they're still cranking out engines with pushrods, fixed cam timing, and still charging prices like they're recovering R&D spending...
The whole thing went straight over your head.
Flat tappet engines ran great on the oil of the time. You can't blame the engine because someone decided to change the oil chemistry.
Show me where this import [censored] is superior. Let me guess, pushrods are outdated therfore American cars suck. The plain and simple of it is my GN will take a dump on pretty much anything you can buy off the showroom floor with it's outdated 12 valves and pushrods. What can you buy that's faster than a ZR1 for under $200,000? How many imports can make 800hp reliably and up to 1,000hp on the stock bottom end like the Mustang Cobra?
How about fuel economy? Want to put my 3.2L 210whp TL up against an LS1? It's identical with the exception the LSx engines make 100 more hp.
The almost unnoticable push in the back when my TL hits vtec is cute, but the car is very forgettable, 24 valves and all. How do DOHC and SOHC engines get you to the grocery store any better than pushrod engines?
You talk of these engines like there has been no advancement since the 60s. Do you have any idea how many advancement and upgrades were in the then new LSx series engines? My guess is you don't, you just judge it by how many valves it has or whether it has pushrods. Last I checked, Ford has been producing SOHC and DOHC engines for years. I can think of a couple of 60s models from Chevy and Ford that used a SOHC.
There are people like me that prefer the torque and laid back manner of the pushrod Buick 3.8L for grocery getting vs something that has to shift at 3K or greater just to get moving.
1960's Ford DOHC:
This was run in the Ford/Lotus Indy car in the early 60's.
427 SOHC. 1965. 657HP bone stock.
The Brit's invented Variable Valve Timing for use on steam engines in the 1800's. None of this stuff is new. And I'm not saying Ford invented or mastered it, but that they have been USING it longer than most of the "Imports" (Japanese, not the Germans) have been making their own stuff.
For example, Honda started off making motorcycles. They didn't make their first car until 1960. Though they did exceptionally well in terms of engine development in F1 from '65 until they pulled out. Their engines were regarded as being very reliable with solid BHP output.
Toyota started making engines in 1935, starting with a copy of the Chevy Stovebolt.
It wasn't until 1947 that they actually produced an engine of their own design.
In 1968, Toyota introduced their first (own) OHC engine (previous had been pushrod), and DOHC in 1969. They had an OHC engine for 1967, but the head design was from Yamaha (as were many other head and valvetrain designs used by Toyota).
In most respects, it was the Germans than invented or mastered a lot of this stuff.
Comically though, the most powerful all-motor cars on earth are pushrod.
That above engine has gone 6.30's in the 1/4 at well over 200Mph. It also makes in the neighbourhood of 2,000HP on C16.
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
You're ignoring the fact that many engines were fine until the SM oils came out. Are you really saying it's coincidence that many engines with plenty miles on them mysteriously failed after running an SM oil due to metallurgy issues?
In the turbo Buick world, we saw the same thing happen. Not all failed, in fact many more survived than failed but you can't overlook it when perfectly healthy engines started failing when the only variable you changed was the oil.
I'm not sure why you hate older American cars but the easier and cheaper to modify is very true. It took me $200 to go from high 13s to high 12s. Under $1,500 to run deep in the 11s. And this is with a 6 banger. You still have the Fox bodies and LSx guys that would walk all over imports in a dollar per hp race. Let's not mention the old Mopars, Fords, and Chevy big blocks from the 60s in slightly modded form.
I'm not ignoring it, I just don't believe the oil is what needs fixing in the situation I quoted.
For this discussion I don't care about horsepower-per-dollar modification comparisons, neither do the API people, neither do most Joe Average folks who buy a Jeep to drive the kids to school. *If* I had chosen an American family vehicle with such "classic" engineering and it ground itself to engine replacement in
Quoting quarter mile times etc... it's clear that you've got a special-interest vehicle. Feel free to run whatever special interest fluids you want in it and argue that API SM isn't fit for special interest, modified (old) vehicles.
Old, special interest technology that will cause engine failure in a single OCI has no place in a modern grocery-getter.
Don't mix "Mopars from the 60s" and "I can get into the 11s with $1500" with a 2009 mom's taxi.
My beef isn't particularly with fans of old American cars (although I don't share the interest), it's with the continuance of out-dated, sub-par engineering and specifications by the American car companies in new models. I'm not a fan of American cars old or new as a result. Last I checked, they weren't selling Jeeps at bargain basement prices which would account for poor metallurgy specs and no advancements in engine technology. All the while we're trying to reduce pollution and carbon footprint and they're still cranking out engines with pushrods, fixed cam timing, and still charging prices like they're recovering R&D spending...
The whole thing went straight over your head.
Flat tappet engines ran great on the oil of the time. You can't blame the engine because someone decided to change the oil chemistry.
Show me where this import [censored] is superior. Let me guess, pushrods are outdated therfore American cars suck. The plain and simple of it is my GN will take a dump on pretty much anything you can buy off the showroom floor with it's outdated 12 valves and pushrods. What can you buy that's faster than a ZR1 for under $200,000? How many imports can make 800hp reliably and up to 1,000hp on the stock bottom end like the Mustang Cobra?
How about fuel economy? Want to put my 3.2L 210whp TL up against an LS1? It's identical with the exception the LSx engines make 100 more hp.
The almost unnoticable push in the back when my TL hits vtec is cute, but the car is very forgettable, 24 valves and all. How do DOHC and SOHC engines get you to the grocery store any better than pushrod engines?
You talk of these engines like there has been no advancement since the 60s. Do you have any idea how many advancement and upgrades were in the then new LSx series engines? My guess is you don't, you just judge it by how many valves it has or whether it has pushrods. Last I checked, Ford has been producing SOHC and DOHC engines for years. I can think of a couple of 60s models from Chevy and Ford that used a SOHC.
There are people like me that prefer the torque and laid back manner of the pushrod Buick 3.8L for grocery getting vs something that has to shift at 3K or greater just to get moving.
1960's Ford DOHC:
This was run in the Ford/Lotus Indy car in the early 60's.
427 SOHC. 1965. 657HP bone stock.
The Brit's invented Variable Valve Timing for use on steam engines in the 1800's. None of this stuff is new. And I'm not saying Ford invented or mastered it, but that they have been USING it longer than most of the "Imports" (Japanese, not the Germans) have been making their own stuff.
For example, Honda started off making motorcycles. They didn't make their first car until 1960. Though they did exceptionally well in terms of engine development in F1 from '65 until they pulled out. Their engines were regarded as being very reliable with solid BHP output.
Toyota started making engines in 1935, starting with a copy of the Chevy Stovebolt.
It wasn't until 1947 that they actually produced an engine of their own design.
In 1968, Toyota introduced their first (own) OHC engine (previous had been pushrod), and DOHC in 1969. They had an OHC engine for 1967, but the head design was from Yamaha (as were many other head and valvetrain designs used by Toyota).
In most respects, it was the Germans than invented or mastered a lot of this stuff.
Comically though, the most powerful all-motor cars on earth are pushrod.
That above engine has gone 6.30's in the 1/4 at well over 200Mph. It also makes in the neighbourhood of 2,000HP on C16.
