Is your job / career at risk of Artificial Intelligence putting you in the unemployment line ?

Astro14

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We're not talking entry level wage at the current minimum wage Astro. You'll have to admit that $7.25/hr is a slave wage, and a joke, because not even high school students working part time are willing to work for that (not where I live anyway). The homeless won't work for that because they can make more money than that panhandling on the street. 25 years ago I wasn't able to hire unskilled part time employees for under $10/hr to start, then I had to train them, and then I had to give them a raise to keep them. The $7.25/hr minimum wage is WAY outdated for the times, it needs to be raised. IMO if a business can't make money without using $7.25/hr slave labor, they need to raise their prices or find something else to do. Now days, many businesses are unable to fill entry level positions for less than $12/hr, and that is a fact. Burger places like McDonalds are advertising jobs for $12/hr to start right on their marquis signs.
"Joke", "Slave Wage", and other sensational epithets aimed at pay rates don't really change the fact that some jobs are entry-level and the labor performed in those jobs isn't worth much.

A surgeon makes several thousand an hour. Their skills are worth that.

A cashier at McDonalds isn't worth much. If a kid doesn't want to work for $12/hr, then that is their choice, but the simple fact is that many of those cashiers have already been replaced with a flat screen ordering interface that doesn't need training, never calls in sick, quits, or shirks working.

Somewhere in the middle, the skills that a worker has acquired makes them worth an higher, or lower, amount per hour. It is a market. My labor was worth $27/hr* as a first year airline pilot. It was worth $180/hour as a fourth year pilot. Then $67/hour as a seventh year pilot because the industry was squeezing out costs through bankruptcy court.

That is how labor markets work. IF the demand for that skill is there, labor commands a higher price. If the demand changes, then the labor rate will change along with it.

Now, in my case, I thought my labor was worth more, so, I went back to Active Duty. I sold my skills to a different employer. I went back to the airline when they were willing to pay me what I was worth.

Finally, all three of my kids worked for $10/hour when they were in high school and college. That was their summer job. Scooping ice cream at a local shop. A modest addition from the tip jar (labeled "College Fund") but basically, $10/hour. If kids in your area think their labor is worth more than my kids, then, I think they are suffering from a breathtaking level of entitlement.

But that's just my opinion.

My kids went to college (two graduated, one is still a junior) and changed their skill set. Their skills now command a different wage. But when they were in high school, scooping ice cream was worth about $10/hour. Setting the wage much higher than that as a matter of law doesn't really work, it raises the price of a cone, and might cause the shop to close as fewer people are willing to buy that expensive cone.



*Pilots don't get paid for a lot of the work they do, and they don't get paid for 2,000 hours/year as most labor does. They get paid when the airplane is in the air, so, the hourly rate is a distortion. It’s closer to 900 hours of pay annually. Further, an entry level airline job required a college degree, and extensive flying experience, for which I qualified with 11 years experience, including two combat deployments, of flying in the Navy.
 
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4WD

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When I was young … was ready for a job change … an older guy told me if you are going to do entry level work at least apply where there are jobs you can work up to. I got on at a machine shop … just cleaning up at first until I told a foreman I’m taking drafting and machine work in school. They put me on a lathe - nice raise came with it.
 
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Business will adapt. Restaurants were laying off staff here in WA state to budget for the higher wage. Automation is around the corner on a lot of jobs.

If you have a face to face type of job then you can be replaced by a avatar bot. Someone in a remote location will talk to you. Banks, insurance, etc etc.
 
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This is a hugely interesting and important thread. I've read along and you gentlemen and ladies present some powerfully convincing arguments for your varied opinions. Very impressive commentary all.

So my take. The minimum wage ought to be zero. Wait, before you flame me, point out where my premise is incorrect and please to the extent possible, delete the social implications and appeals to emotion.

A person's labor is his own just like his personal property.

He may or may not want to sell it. If he does, he gets to set the asking price. When there are offers, he gets to decide what he will sell for.
Arbitrarily setting a wage level seriously interferes with his ability to bargain for the price of what he is selling and is an impediment to the notion of being able to contract with another person for a good or service.

It seems to me that where this notion came unhooked from reality is when 'manpower' departments became 'human resource' departments.
 
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Finally, all three of my kids worked for $10/hour when they were in high school and college. That was their summer job. Scooping ice cream at a local shop. A modest addition from the tip jar (labeled "College Fund") but basically, $10/hour. If kids in your area think their labor is worth more than my kids, then, I think they are suffering from a breathtaking level of entitlement.
Question #1. How many years ago was that?
Question #2. Would your kids have been willing to work the same job for $7.25/hr, or the lower minimum wage prior to 2009?
Comment #1. Today's kids are FAR more entitled than they were when we were kids, or when your and my kids were their age. When I turned 16 nobody gave me a car and very few parents bought cars for their kids. Now days it is EXPECTED that parents buy cars for their kids when they turn 16, and not just any car, the car of THEIR choice.
 

Ws6

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A day will come, in the not too far off distance, meaning, during the lifetime of the children in this country, maybe sooner.

Robots will replace most all physical labor, meaning people who perform tasks will be replaced. There are already "think tanks" figuring out how to make this work in society and the answer seems to be robots taxed and the money given to the non working public. More or less there will be no need to go to work. There is no denying, the day is coming, almost here as crazy as some might think.

We all saw it in the automotive industry, we are now seeing robots cooking hamburgers and French fries.
A.I. is right at this moment replacing many white collar jobs in the banking industry. Just watch as Wells Fargo is trying to become more efficient with its competitors right at this moment eliminating 50,000 Jobs and 10 billion a year in expenses.
Walmart, Amazon will be your new "drug store" and in Walmarts case a large percentage of Americans health care provider.
CVS, Walgreens ... ect ... well .. .we will see.

All I know, I am glad I grew up in a time that you either sank or swam, succeed or fail. I worked hard my whole life and enjoyed living free as well as the satisfaction of being successful. No one knows exactly what the future will be like, I just hope people dont become living cattle. A product of society with no purpose for the majority. Really weird .. .

Im old enough to remember the New York State min wage of $1.85 an hour.
Just keep in mind, the higher you raise the min wage the less jobs for the youth.
Agreed. This was part of what I planned for as a kid. Also, pretty sure people are, by and large, kindof cattle-ish already.
 

Astro14

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Question #1. How many years ago was that?
Question #2. Would your kids have been willing to work the same job for $7.25/hr, or the lower minimum wage prior to 2009?
Comment #1. Today's kids are FAR more entitled than they were when we were kids, or when your and my kids were their age. When I turned 16 nobody gave me a car and very few parents bought cars for their kids. Now days it is EXPECTED that parents buy cars for their kids when they turn 16, and not just any car, the car of THEIR choice.
A:

1. As recently as two years ago.

2. Depends on what other jobs were available. You would have to ask them.

I will say that my son worked 60 hours/week. 40 at the ice cream shop, and part time cleaning hotel rooms, scrubbing toilets and doing linens. Menial work. He’s also worked cleaning fish, at Panera Bread, and at a consignment store.

And all for about the same wage.

He understands the value of work and the value of labor.

He has perspective that many of his college classmates lack.


But doesn’t your comment strike to the heart of the issue? It’s not about a fair value for the labor performed, it’s about what people expect to be paid.

There’s the problem: that’s a huge disconnect.
 

Ws6

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A:

1. As recently as two years ago.

2. Depends on what other jobs were available. You would have to ask them.

I will say that my son worked 60 hours/week. 40 at the ice cream shop, and part time cleaning hotel rooms, scrubbing toilets and doing linens. Menial work. He’s also worked cleaning fish, at Panera Bread, and at a consignment store.

And all for about the same wage.

He understands the value of work and the value of labor.

He has perspective that many of his college classmates lack.


But doesn’t your comment strike to the heart of the issue? It’s not about a fair value for the labor performed, it’s about what people expect to be paid.

There’s the problem: that’s a huge disconnect.
It's supply and demand. This is why some dude playing with a ball makes millions while some dude saving someone's life gets paid far far far less. There are plenty of dudes who can deal with a bloody mess of a person, very few who can play with a ball at a high high high level.
 

Dave Hess

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It should be what the market will bare. Sooner or later you will run out of people willing to work for you at $2/5/8/10/12 an hour. For example, people in my field are being offered $500/12 hours on TOP of our normal pay, and we're saying "Keep it, I'm not coming in." Money vs. Inconvenience. There is a balance, and the market will define it. Laws are just an artificial way of propping it up unnaturally, IMO.
Lots of people wouldn’t mind working a job like that.

Sounds like a dream job for many. 👍

.
 
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Dave Hess

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My 3 kids were working at Publix Supermarkets as their first job in high school.

Great way to learn responsibilities at 16 years old.
 
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This is a hugely interesting and important thread. I've read along and you gentlemen and ladies present some powerfully convincing arguments for your varied opinions. Very impressive commentary all.

So my take. The minimum wage ought to be zero. Wait, before you flame me, point out where my premise is incorrect and please to the extent possible, delete the social implications and appeals to emotion.

A person's labor is his own just like his personal property.

He may or may not want to sell it. If he does, he gets to set the asking price. When there are offers, he gets to decide what he will sell for.
Arbitrarily setting a wage level seriously interferes with his ability to bargain for the price of what he is selling and is an impediment to the notion of being able to contract with another person for a good or service.

It seems to me that where this notion came unhooked from reality is when 'manpower' departments became 'human resource' departments.

Not a flame, but I think where you're coming from, we've already been there. There was no minimum wage at one point. I guess you could argue whether having one makes society better or worse. Some would say that it was worse without one. Then you have a race to the bottom.

A minimum wage basically sets the floor in a buyers or sellers market. Unemployed people tend to be more desperate than employers so the employer has the leverage to set wages. Minimum doesn't matter if there more demand than supply. But when there's an economic downturn, I would say it stops it from making it worse. People could also form their own minimum wage. I've heard that at Home Depot parking lots, all the day laborers would agree not to take below a certain hourly amount, say $10. No union but just general consensus that those side day jobs, the employer is just looking for the lowest price laborer.

I suppose in a perfect system, maybe your theory has merit. But our system isn't perfect and the method to correct it isn't perfect either. But probably better than what was there before. Which was nothing.
 
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The reality is, there are always politics and always imperfection in the "market". There will always be players who abuse the monopoly power as employers, employees, politicians, and consumers / users. We see these price fixings, strikes, laws, etc on a regular basis, that we will not be able to say "this is how it should be ideally" because they will always be abuses. I've already given up believing in it.

Right now what I see is certain jobs will go away whether there are minimum wages or not. There will also be new kinds of jobs that pays very well even for entry level. Young people should not enter a dead end field like cashiers, travel agency, insurance agents, bank tellers, etc. Those jobs will be gone before they are retired, those jobs are for retirees who just need to do something at a low wages. Young people need to look out for themselves and get into the high demand field that pays 350k or so a year in 2020 when they reach senior levels, like tech. Sure there's no guarantee but they should go in that direction and adjust throughout their careers.

AI is just a tool, there will be competing AIs working against each other trying to compete for higher profit and better results, and human will need to finetune them and come out with better stuff all the time. We still have improvement after steam engines are invented, AC powered trolley, gasoline engines, solar panels, computers, and of course AI. There will be high paying jobs after they retire old jobs.
 
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Basically you have to explain to me why you favor the employer or the employee. Minimum wage gives the employee some leverage. We could also bring up how women are paid less than men for the same job. Some say that's because they don't negotiate as well as men.
 

Dave Hess

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Many women are afraid to negotiate their salary..... men are more likely to negotiate their salary.
 

Ws6

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Lots of people wouldn’t mind working a job like that.

Sounds like a dream job for many. 👍

.
I couldn't disagree more with you. "It pays and I have time off" is all I can say for it. At some point the PTSD, depression, and all that mess either gets to you, or kills your co-workers, or whatever, and you start to see how ugly it really is and at this point if I didn't have the bills, the money wouldn't mean a thing to me. The job affects everyone differently. Me? It's made me cold and antisocial. Just how I deal with it. Others I know have committed or tried to commit suicide, turn to drugs, etc. Trust me, some things are worth more than money. Me? I'm mentally strong enough to deal for a few more years in exchange for that money, but others aren't and it's sad. Also, even though I'm coping, I'll never be the same, and it would horrify people who don't "get it" what I'm now capable of smiling and walking away from.
 
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The challenge of minimum wage is if it is a living wage. Some areas maybe others impossible. There are way more factors then just skills involved. They include available labor pool who will settle for min wage and how a business owner runs their own operation. Some people are just terrible at running business and depend on low wages to make up for their own ineptness. Raising wages will wreck some businesses but reality is something else will swoop into void created (if there was one in first place).

I have worked for a few low wage jobs but thankfully parents pushed me not in quantity of work but quality. What I mean is I did skilled labor such as interning for computer software company age 17, calculus tutoring(18-21), bank age 20(in college), planning commission(19), and also engineering firm(21). My parents pushed me towards that and I had incredible resume at age 21. Not none of those positions paid more then triple min wage at time ($3.35/hr).
 
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The challenge of minimum wage is if it is a living wage. Some areas maybe others impossible. There are way more factors then just skills involved. They include available labor pool who will settle for min wage and how a business owner runs their own operation. Some people are just terrible at running business and depend on low wages to make up for their own ineptness. Raising wages will wreck some businesses but reality is something else will swoop into void created (if there was one in first place).

I have worked for a few low wage jobs but thankfully parents pushed me not in quantity of work but quality. What I mean is I did skilled labor such as interning for computer software company age 17, calculus tutoring(18-21), bank age 20(in college), planning commission(19), and also engineering firm(21). My parents pushed me towards that and I had incredible resume at age 21. Not none of those positions paid more then triple min wage at time ($3.35/hr).


Another effect of you doing all that is that you became known to others and got networked in so to speak. It’s something that doesn’t get mentioned enough.
 

Dave Hess

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I couldn't disagree more with you. "It pays and I have time off" is all I can say for it. At some point the PTSD, depression, and all that mess either gets to you, or kills your co-workers, or whatever, and you start to see how ugly it really is and at this point if I didn't have the bills, the money wouldn't mean a thing to me. The job affects everyone differently. Me? It's made me cold and antisocial. Just how I deal with it. Others I know have committed or tried to commit suicide, turn to drugs, etc. Trust me, some things are worth more than money. Me? I'm mentally strong enough to deal for a few more years in exchange for that money, but others aren't and it's sad. Also, even though I'm coping, I'll never be the same, and it would horrify people who don't "get it" what I'm now capable of smiling and walking away from.

My nephew is a retail pharmacist at a 24 hour store with a drive thru window. Very very high volume retail store.

Says he fills 550 prescriptions in a 12 hour shift.... 300 is considered a vacation.

He makes good money but is very depressed and miserable. High stress, pressure from district manager to meet company metrics, give flu shots and consult with customers, zero Rx fill errors, etc....

He skips lunch just to meet his metrics. He now wishes he chose a different career field and still owes $120K in school loans and is on the verge of a major mental breakdown.

.
 
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Ws6

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My nephew is a retail pharmacist at a 24 hour store with a drive thru window. Very very high volume retail store.

Says he fills 550 prescriptions in a 12 hour shift.... 300 is considered a vacation.

He makes good money but is very depressed and miserable. High stress, pressure from district manager to meet company metrics, give flu shots and consult with customers, zero Rx fill errors, etc....

He skips lunch just to meet his metrics. He now wishes he chose a different career field and still owes $120K in school loans and is on the verge of a major mental breakdown.

.
I dated a pharmacist once. I think the key there is to move to a high income/low volume area.

Also keep in mind he has a very sterile environment. It's a good environment. Ask him the last time he had to fight with someone drugged out on meth covered in bodily fluids, or the last time he ran a code as family screamed in the background and blood poured everywhere and brains oozed out of a GSW to the side of the head or something. Now consider that some of us have been doing that for years, and you'll appreciate just how cold and dark some of us have become just so we can sleep a bit. How weak and sensitive people are has become a great source of amusement to me. What "offends" some people. HAHAHA!
 
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