is mazda fz really a unique ATF or just rebranded toyota ws ?

rotary 13b · Nov 2, 2021

* Thanks for wwillson who encouraged me to start this thread
*Some of the links in other languages use chrome translation for text and ocr for pictures.

I have a Skyactive Mazda 3 that has fw6ael which is very similar transmission to Toyota U660
,

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I have … questions
1- are ws , fz and dexron vi interchangeable ?

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why aisin the transmision manufacturer discounted AISIN AFS
-why does dexron vi wasnt compatible with AISIN afw+ in 2020 but in 2017 was compatible?
why did aisin doesnt mix ws and fz with dexron vi in AFW-VI while in 2020 https://www.aisin.com.sg/wp-content...Compatible-Application-Specification-List.pdf

4- when miles / years to change fz which is group iii partially by drain plug or easier by extraction from dipstick (4.2 to 5 quarts )
-when to change it completely(8.24 quarts) : partially by extraction from dipstick (4.2 quarts )then after 5k miles from removing the atf pan and filter 5 quarts ?
-i live in dry environment with an average of 72F in winter and 109.4 F in summer, my average transmission temperature is 194 f ,
- helpful used fluid analysis from american 2 3 , russian ,
In our environment, major transmission issues start to appear for some mazda viechles if the fluid hasn't been change for 118k miles or 200k miles , rough shifting appear for some after 44k miles of old atf and got 70% success rate after transmission update
- helpful resources about changing interval 1 2 3 4 , aisin afw+ fully synthetic recommended complete atf flush every 20k miles

5- which one SHOULD I use and why?

Prices in my country mazda fz 25 US $ a liter , T-WS 9.5$ a liter, amsoil 15.7$ a quart

Eddie · Nov 2, 2021

Fz because there is no direct data that suggest the others are suitable. If a third party AF were acceptable I am sure it would be listed at least a suitable for top-up.

rotary 13b · Nov 2, 2021

Eddie said:
Fz because there is no direct data that suggest the others are suitable. If a third party AF were acceptable I am sure it would be listed at least a suitable for top-up.

thanks for replying
i think most of Japanese ATF has no direct data , where can i search for it ?

kschachn · Nov 2, 2021

rotary 13b said:
thanks for replying
i think most of Japanese ATF has no direct data , where can i search for it ?

What direct data? All the Japanese fluids I have seen clearly state the approvals or licenses they hold or don’t hold.

PimTac · Nov 2, 2021

Use the Mazda fluid. Simple answer.

ekrampitzjr · Nov 2, 2021

I believe Rotary 13B is in Russia, and he's trying to tell us Mazda FZ ATF is really expensive there. The stuff is around $16–$18 per quart (~1 liter) here in the US, so it's not that much cheaper here.

Idemitsu makes the factory-fill FZ ATF for Mazda.

I think you can safely use the Ravenol or Aisin blue FZ fluid, as they were designed to meet the Mazda spec. Do not use any red ATF or any "universal" fluid.

rotary 13b · Nov 2, 2021

ekrampitzjr said:
I believe Rotary 13B is in Russia, and he's trying to tell us Mazda FZ ATF is really expensive there. The stuff is around $16–$18 per quart (~1 liter) here in the US, so it's not that much cheaper here.

Idemitsu makes the factory-fill FZ ATF for Mazda.

I think you can safely use the Ravenol or Aisin blue FZ fluid, as they were designed to meet the Mazda spec. Do not use any red ATF or any "universal" fluid.

Russia deosnt have the weather i have mentioned , i live 2200 air miles to the south of Moscow
and yes indonisian made fz is more expensive than
1- imported PAO +group v+ easter
2- japanese made T-WS which is group ii\iii

ekrampitzjr · Nov 2, 2021

Oh. I saw all the .ru (Russian internet code) links and thought you were there...

2EHA · Nov 2, 2021

ekrampitzjr said:
Oh. I saw all the .ru (Russian internet code) links and thought you were there...

the russian oil club has more relevant info for people living in the old world

rotary 13b · Nov 3, 2021

2EHA said:
the russian oil club has more relevant info for people living in the old world

i live in hot environment how can i approximate the difference to apply the information

rotary 13b · Nov 17, 2021

update
mazda has released new atf for same transmission

Crack 60-70% (64742-55-8) + PAO 10-20% (68649-11-6) + PAO 10-20% (151006-58-5), PP deos it mean that minimum transmission protection is 4.37 cst?

2- companies recommend to use it for Toyota ws but not fz ardeca matic pro
3- Companies merge fz , dexron vi, ws ardeca matic -dex6 , ardeca matic s-41

ekrampitzjr · Nov 17, 2021

Mazda A7 is colored red and Mazda says NOT to use it in place of blue FZ ATF. Rotary 13B, use only blue FZ in your Mazda.

No new Mazda sold in North America uses A7 yet, because the Skyactiv-X drivetrain has not been brought here.

rotary 13b · Dec 2, 2021

ekrampitzjr said:
Mazda A7 is colored red and Mazda says NOT to use it in place of blue FZ ATF. Rotary 13B, use only blue FZ in your Mazda.

No new Mazda sold in North America uses A7 yet, because the Skyactiv-X drivetrain has not been brought here.

i agree , but skyactive x has 6 speed and fluid capacity as the transmision found in skyactiv -g
i think it has the same transmission but they use A7 for better fuel economy
i wont use it , iam just glad that the transmission could work with 4.37 cst viscosity

rotary 13b · Jan 28, 2022

i discovered new things that i would like to add

1- mazda fw6eal is related to Aisin AW TF-8# SC transmision family https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWTF-80_SC
i looked at commercial car that any automaker would like to increase its reliability reputation , i found Volkswagen Transporter T6 in the same transmission family which use Volkswagen ATF G 055 025 A2 which is toyota iv =100= 7.2 cst

Also vw tiguan use the same viscosity in its 09G transmission made by aisin until 2019 or later *
why did vw choose high viscosity atf?

2- mazda has released new Patented to its modified aisin tf-80 named fw6ael

ViHYGwpYGDSxNXjIj5h0dNNup4kZEd7O0ieHfHEhB5faep8agG3Jta0BZx04pRKaN5URkt63xd5Xg2WPYpLsrYcIzHaNQsEnYAeIe7j8q3EB5fUdKAP_YnB4tIQzP0ZRHmcwm7SZ

lpgoZdDNzTaNTKyPbAgg-M4mYcFUajEKcs0qI50pNFq34TY-qg4R3tkay6uanp-a7vNo-Y92_5OYWuXPuvcnwIuTAOJPlDPU0uV4qzAbugVfluxAniW0I2cr_dksiME3n34ThEzD

https://www.jsme.or.jp/jsme/uploads/2016/11/awardn13-1.pdf

QMzNLmDwmo0hnTHbHyxj2CDcC4Hg5banvZNR4iXhiVcDU1jBnt8gEpy7uPOejZLoc6lKA1NRxKWNakqNdVfWkj1U22f8RQMQr7saRspyKzb9sM_EBJBJxGWJUj4upRWPKt-gwNFa

https://patents.justia.com/patent/9353843

- 0:42 ( manual clutch in automatic)

does these modifications on the (world first wet clutch) meanes that mazda fz is unique and can't be mixed with universal atf ?

rotary 13b · Aug 22, 2022

*update*
i noticed 1- high metal in used mazda fz analysis 1 > 2 > 3 in comparison to other aisin trans
while the only multi atf analysis was on castrol multi atf full synthetic approximately less metal wear even if it is only 10k miles and he added air cooler to the transmission here

2- the transmission water cooler doesn't provide much coolant the transmission average fluid temperature 192 -199 F during 115 F ambient temp

which made me search more

And i found out that

@MolaKule Wet clutch isnt unique to mazda transmission according to MolaKule

- toyota ws is allowed to have viscosity of 7.4 @100c according to main atf formulator in the world afton > 2 , petro- canada and aisin which is transmission manufacturer , idemitsu which is main asian atf formulator ,

- We ran high mileage tests on multiple mazda fw6ael : kixx dx-iv , toyota ws , zic sp4 , mercon Lv , liqui moly 1800 , hyundai xteer sp4 , motul ATF VI , MIGHTY VS7 multi , they all didn't noticed any weird shifting except ZIC ATF Multi LF does anyone know why ?
Unfortunately Non of them did UOA except castrol how accurate is smooth shifting to determine fz compatibility ?

Gm Dexron vi and mercon LV are better than toyota ws in Viscometrics and related properties • Thermal and oxidative stability • Anti-wear performance • Friction characteristic and durability • Aeration and Foam performance according to published research that was financed by gm in 2007

And afton additive

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HITEC 2018 is better than t-ws and (HITEC 3491LV=dex vi & mercon LV ) is better than HITEC 2018
Multi atf is approved by testing not only for marketing according to afton

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* and MolaKule and thousands of universal atf users successful stories @MolaKule

my questions are
1- which one will provide best protection 1- cheap dexron iv \ mercon LV approved oil change filter after first 20k miles then drain & fill every 19k - 25 k miles
OR
ws\fz with drain&fill every 37k miles one and change the filter every 74k miles
OR
amsoil ATL or redline d6 and change the filter every 50k miles
OR
Redline d4 & amsoil ATF change atf filter every 62k miles
???

2- how to reduce transmission fluid temperature from 192 -199 F to 167-176 F
1- transmission air cooled radiator with electric fan
Cons :
Increase atf leak risk
Need alot of personal search since i have to calculate atf pressure changes , atf optimum warm up time …..,
Longer warmup time
Need to keep an eye on atf temperature to turn on or off the fan
The water cooler doesn't have available oil pathway , it only has external pipe for coolant

2_ajCkEfiZsqRmIvJnyyM9ZJ9qH1glkXQe3hTyeHuu8VuQnNAoRP_91eoQkhQkzeytc4gHep1VrVA6HtjG2NOWlRgwdfBZI6fWE0wpB3B3sdOPACvM1_qJIKHVWdM1jFPCLjKWPJEi-HC1yNiAHeawo

5i8y6R_8QwejUKIqIzdYKDyhkJmirAmx1nAwRoHL8JbLeGwiuUe0NN8F-aMAAKFSB1ez7PbqlaHXnU7J8n-0fsxIYZdT4txUWZHvbefh43DDfZM1hldNkqwm2wDCOw8lONU5yJ83PUNhOKSVHRECYDE

so it be deleted by

KVPwdzqtVnL-TgaTloGyqD98KAFIO6msMi8BSeuHou-Ovm5nfxk03bGWuK4v3xkxwMOWD0qeR_4kKbN7YqCBTLJdfndYs5ehFHfTXVqz5JDwtj4uEgCbazA_ZwqsRI5Yd_ZQB-62xCtzQZqlLOAIhFQ

Pros
No risk from coolant atf mix because of water cooler
Increase atf volume which increase its life
The most effective way to reduce atf temp
Add external filter which will be easier to service

—--------------------------------------------

Thermostate 170F

Pros
Cheap
Effective
Doesnt enter open loop as tested by Callisto

Cons
The engine temp will be fluctuating
My engine oil temp is optimum and constant @ 198 F thanks to mazda thermostat which start to open at 177-184 f , full open at 203F with full open lift 0.33 inch or more and by decrease this temp i may get consequences like
Significant Increase fuel consumption
Increase air intake valve oil deposit ??
I may need fan re- programing

—--------------------------

2- heatsink

Twp8_ALMOpsCZM4tUsBwMqQml6ktyoAwmFGq6DDLyAnoUuR6Zev2i72gzJPO2hm9wcns4n8silf4hBQGoALt3Y79lPI_Kw2l4RKbh175JgakLnVNUxEkA7OVY-Pb5TIN-oeLPalVGBDmw48hJZQ_1h3I6RFasyfSXZaYcFFjA454_-si3p7apPW7ug

glued to conductive glue to transmission oil pan

F8tDCz20uTtX8V1V2aIr5_6Xsr6nto__jnhIaqbfbBWYee4exAPiSo_4UVMJqTYxsQk8BON203GgEtqukP59-4dzKV7PzJQIS6WZSPJFoU-OPhL_aQVjMiMrp_dRNuzDAHb_gIc9_mHiqNnFBxKBeiI

Pros
Easy , cheap
No long search
Effective according to * > * >* >*

Cons
Low clearance
Doesnt cool the transmission in traffic
Doesnt prevent coolant\atf mix from trans cooler

pbm · Oct 25, 2022

I will only use Mazda FZ or Aisin MFZ or maybe Ravenol's version of FZ which are all blue ATF's and recommended specifically for Mazda Skyactiv AT's. Having said that, Rockauto lists Valvoline Maxlife and LiquiMoly 1800 (both of which are red) as replacements for FZ.

More Information for LIQUI MOLY 20032

MolaKule · Oct 25, 2022

rotary 13b said:
* Thanks for wwillson who encouraged me to start this thread
*Some of the links in other languages use chrome translation for text and ocr for pictures.

I have a Skyactive Mazda 3 that has fw6ael which is very similar transmission to Toyota U660
,

I have … questions
1- are ws , fz and dexron vi interchangeable ?

I asked the redline: “At the moment we do not recommend crossing the Mazda ATF FZ as it uses a unique additive package. D6ATF is a suitable replacement for low viscosity WS ATF, closer to the upper end of the viscosity range at operating temperature, as we usually place our high performance products.
The additive package was better suited to Japanese friction materials than the original D6ATF, for a short time D4ATF was recommended for WS ATF applications.

I contacted idemitsu about multi atf, and here is the answer, "
We understand the viscosity of the Toyota ATF WS and Mazda ATF FZ. However, friction characteristics, and the oil's ability to provide fuel economy vary.
We regret to inform you that we do not have the transmission fluid your Mazda 3 that meets the Mazda ATF FZ specification.
We recommend that you use Mazda ATF FZ in your vehicle for the best protection and optimal performance. "

I contacted amsoil because Signature Series Fuel - Efficient on the international website they did not write that fz is compatible, but fz is listed on the US website !!

these company recommend to use there 5.4cst for Toyota ws but not fz : amsoil Fuel-Efficien on the international website only , redline d6 , Hyundai XTeer ATF SP 4 , starkraft atf vi , neste multi atf , idemitsu tls-lv , adrifol 8HP Fluid (grün) , Petronas Tutela Multi ATF 700 in the previous edition , Total Fluidmatic LV MV except in thailand

2- who is the target consumer of 7.2 viscosity since these companies recommend it for fz : for a short period of time D4ATF was recommended for T-WS

Kixx multi but didnt recommend it when i contact them , castrol atf multivehicle , ngn Universal ATF ,rolf ATF Multivehicle ,unitedATF MV-99 ,aisin ATF AFW+ , idemitsu atf , s-oil 7 ، shell spirax-s5-atf-x does not recommend it to T-ws , castrol transmax atf z ,

summary of People opinions to use 7.2 cst instead of 5.8 cst :1- more protection 2- felt improved shifting 3- aisin is the manufacturer of the transmision 4- no one has been hurt from using multi atf 5- viscosity of 6.2 is the sweet spot between protection and fuel economy...

Suggestions:

1) Wait for a response to your earlier question before submitting later questions or comments,

2) I don't think it is reasonable to expect BITOG readers to look at each opinion posted by other people or from other websites.

danbfree · Jun 17, 2023

I agree that it's probably safest to use an actual blue, directly FZ labeled fluid (Mazda, Aisin or Ravenol)... When you can get Aisin MFZ for half the price of the Mazda OEM and is quite possibly better, that is the only alternative you need... When it's in stock it's less than $9 qt. + shipping at Rock Auto.

pbm · Jun 17, 2023

I just did a D&R of the ATF on my daughters 2021 CX-30 using Aisin's FZ fluid (4 quarts 6 ounces). I didn't drop the pan and change the filter but will do so next time. The OE fluid did turn yellowish but looked pretty clean for 37K miles. The Aisin fluid hasn't changed the shift feel and seems to work great.
I paid $14 a quart online which is about $10 a quart cheaper than the Mazda OE fluid.

PS: I posted in another thread that I changed the rear differential fluid using Royal Purple 75w90 at 25K miles and it seems to be working fine. I haven't been able to change the front transfer case fluid because the fill bolt is blocked by a bracket which wouldn't budge after I removed the bolt which appears to hold that bracket. I'm not sure how or if the dealer would change this fluid but I'm holding out for a Youtube solution.

danbfree · Jun 17, 2023

pbm said:
I just did a D&R of the ATF on my daughters 2021 CX-30 using Aisin's FZ fluid (4 quarts 6 ounces). I didn't drop the pan and change the filter but will do so next time. The OE fluid did turn yellowish but looked pretty clean for 37K miles. The Aisin fluid hasn't changed the shift feel and seems to work great.
I paid $14 a quart online which is about $10 a quart cheaper than the Mazda OE fluid.

PS: I posted in another thread that I changed the rear differential fluid using Royal Purple 75w90 at 25K miles and it seems to be working fine. I haven't been able to change the front transfer case fluid because the fill bolt is blocked by a bracket which wouldn't budge after I removed the bolt which appears to hold that bracket. I'm not sure how or if the dealer would change this fluid but I'm holding out for a Youtube solution.

Thanks for confirming the amount that drained. I had planned on buying 5 quarts for my MZ3 AWD Turbo, although out of stock right now at Rock Auto, I can definitely wait, I'm only about to hit 20k, although with they were hard driven miles with slippy shifts from a JB4 until I discovered a setting within JB4 to help provide crisp shifts, and now flash tuned with lots of development pulls for logging. A Ravenol 4L would be pretty much exactly 4 qts. 6 oz but why spend more ($63) and not getting any extra fluid at all in case I drain a little more. We can use the same filters/service kits as all the other modern Skyactiv trans, good quality ones are only $25-35, I'm going to wait until 60k to do that myself.

Also, I think I remember your bracket blocking the fill bolt dilemma, sorry I guess we don't have that issue on the AWD 3...

is mazda fz really a unique ATF or just rebranded toyota ws ?

does these modifications on the (world first wet clutch) meanes that mazda fz is unique and can't be mixed with universal atf ?​

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does these modifications on the (world first wet clutch) meanes that mazda fz is unique and can't be mixed with universal atf ?