It seems that alot of other 5W-40 and 0W-40 synthetics (and even 0W-30) have a higher VI. This seems a little low for such a supposedly fantastic, ester based 5W-40 wt. synthetic. Or is there more to the picture? Is its HTHS really>4.1?
Is M! T&SUV's VI on the low side or is that mileading?
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I think the low VI could be because of it's HD application, like a 15w-40 would be. Modest CC numbers too...probally it's tweaked for the hot end of the spectrum...HT/HS >4.1 a definate. That's why it's be fine for your car. No sludge, good cold flow and high HT/HS, that's all you need.
Do you know which oil has a higher HT/HS.....GC or T&SUV ??
How do you guys know the additive package is compatible and beneficial to an engine that needs an ACEA A3/B3/B4 spec for approval? Would M1 T&SUV, as the formula exists right now, be approved for modern Audi's, BMW's and MB's if they tried for that. Or if they just decided to label if differently and put it out as a euro spec oil? Is this stuff (T&SUV) the 5W-40 M1 syn on MB's approved list?
Hi,
V8blitz - it is my understanding that Delvac 1 5w-40 (and M1 T&SUV 5w-40)would easily meet/exceed the ACEA specs you list. I asked this question of the Additive package suppliers and "the" people at EM many moons ago - that is why I use it
I am unsure if it is the MB Approved and Listed 5w-40 though. I suspect that it is and if you read the other thread you have started I may be about to find out!
Surely by now you will have "taken on board" that very few people on BITOG will criticise this product for use in most engines where the viscosity is suitable
It has an excellent track record over a great diversity of engine families and in every Country where it is sold. Simply, it is too expensive for some and for others an overkill
Regards
Doug
V8blitz - it is my understanding that Delvac 1 5w-40 (and M1 T&SUV 5w-40)would easily meet/exceed the ACEA specs you list. I asked this question of the Additive package suppliers and "the" people at EM many moons ago - that is why I use it
I am unsure if it is the MB Approved and Listed 5w-40 though. I suspect that it is and if you read the other thread you have started I may be about to find out!
Surely by now you will have "taken on board" that very few people on BITOG will criticise this product for use in most engines where the viscosity is suitable
It has an excellent track record over a great diversity of engine families and in every Country where it is sold. Simply, it is too expensive for some and for others an overkill
Regards
Doug
That's the HT/HS (High Temp / High Shear visc) not VI. All A3 calls for is HT/HS >3.5. To put D1/T&S in perspective, even a dino 15w-40 meets A3, Chevron Delo 400.
Thanks Audi, for "untangling" that comment.
VI index on an oil product data sheet is the rate of change of viscosity vs. temperature, and is actually the slope of the line when graphing viscosity from 100C to 40C.
SAE 30 straight weights will be close to a 1 to 1 rate of change and have VI index's of 105-110.
M1 T&SUV, 14.8 cSt @ 100C and 102 cSt @ 40C, compared to other 5W-40's with 40C viscosities in the 80-90's, simply will be thicker at very cold temps(-30C).
VI index on an oil product data sheet is the rate of change of viscosity vs. temperature, and is actually the slope of the line when graphing viscosity from 100C to 40C.
SAE 30 straight weights will be close to a 1 to 1 rate of change and have VI index's of 105-110.
M1 T&SUV, 14.8 cSt @ 100C and 102 cSt @ 40C, compared to other 5W-40's with 40C viscosities in the 80-90's, simply will be thicker at very cold temps(-30C).
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The lower the viscosity index , the less viscosity improvers (non-lubricating "plastic" additive) have been added. Less VI is better!
Does this help explain why M1 0w40 (VI 187) sometimes becomes a 30 weight or is that a whole other matter all together?
There are many ways to achieve a high VI. One is to use an inherently high VI base oil. Another is to blend two base oils that together form a higher VI (like PAO and esters). You mentioned polymeric VI improvers. Mobil's SuperSyn is called a high viscosity index polyalphaolefin, and blending in a small quantity can allegedly replace or reduce the need for polymeric VI improver.
Short clicky so you don't have to scroll
[ May 17, 2005, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
Hi,
V8Blitz - I cannot tell you what the M1 5w-40 "model" is on Porsche's list
There are a number of Porsche officially Approved and Listed oils from various Manufacturers
Porsche's minimum Approval criteria has been for a Group 3 synthetic and retrospective for all engines dating back to 1979. It appears that A3/B3 is the starting criteria and Porsche Approvals are governed by passing extra test protocols for viscosity (extended period HTHS and etc), volatility and foaming amongst others
Porsche commenced a factory fill "synthetic" in 1992 (Shell's "TMO" 10w-30, a hydrocracked semi-synthetic). In 1993 this was changed to a fully synthetic oil - Shell's synthetic TMO 5w-40
The drain interval has been out to 20k kms (12k miles) since about 1978 - using mineral oils
Shell was their race and factory fill oil supplier for decades. They were a pioneer in many synthetic lubricants - they still are!
This OCI has not been changed until recently when it was extended even further
Mobil's M1 0w-40 has been their factory fill covering all models (including the twin turbo Cayenne V8) and for many years
Excessive oil consumption in some engines is usually traced back to very gentle "running in" practices
Their allowable "normal" oil consumption has been up to 1.5lts per 1000kms for some decades
This is typical of most German engine makers - sadly it "excites" some new owners who are familiar with the "dreaded?" zero oil consumption especially where long OCIs are used
Regards
Doug
V8Blitz - I cannot tell you what the M1 5w-40 "model" is on Porsche's list
There are a number of Porsche officially Approved and Listed oils from various Manufacturers
Porsche's minimum Approval criteria has been for a Group 3 synthetic and retrospective for all engines dating back to 1979. It appears that A3/B3 is the starting criteria and Porsche Approvals are governed by passing extra test protocols for viscosity (extended period HTHS and etc), volatility and foaming amongst others
Porsche commenced a factory fill "synthetic" in 1992 (Shell's "TMO" 10w-30, a hydrocracked semi-synthetic). In 1993 this was changed to a fully synthetic oil - Shell's synthetic TMO 5w-40
The drain interval has been out to 20k kms (12k miles) since about 1978 - using mineral oils
Shell was their race and factory fill oil supplier for decades. They were a pioneer in many synthetic lubricants - they still are!
This OCI has not been changed until recently when it was extended even further
Mobil's M1 0w-40 has been their factory fill covering all models (including the twin turbo Cayenne V8) and for many years
Excessive oil consumption in some engines is usually traced back to very gentle "running in" practices
Their allowable "normal" oil consumption has been up to 1.5lts per 1000kms for some decades
This is typical of most German engine makers - sadly it "excites" some new owners who are familiar with the "dreaded?" zero oil consumption especially where long OCIs are used
Regards
Doug
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True, but if you compare the viscosity index of two oils of the same viscosity range, the one with the higher viscosity index contains most likely more viscosity index improvers. That's more what I meant to say, but, admittedly, I was very unclear about it!
That's not correct. The current Mobil 1 5W-30 is reputed to include no VI improvers. Its high VI is a result of the blending of PAO with alkylated napthalene, as well as SuperSyn (HVI PAO). It's known to be very shear stable as a result, and stays in viscosity very well. Mobil Clean 5000 contains VI improver. Here are their spec sheet entries:
Mobil Clean 5000 5W-30: Viscosity Index 161
Mobil 1 5W-30: 169
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_Clean_5000.asp
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_5W-30.asp
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Okay, you are giving a specific example, while I was talking about "generally." Are you even comparing the same type oil? Isn't Drive Clean a mineral oil?
The question is how the high viscosity index is achieved. Is it by using a high quality base oil, or by adding a lot of VIs? For example, due to its high VI index, Castrol Syntec 5W-50 is often maligned on this site, because it is said to be "loaded with VIs" in order to achieve its high spread.
Yes. That's simply because it's near impossible to make an oil that meets SAE 5W-50 without VI improver - even with high quality PAO/ester/AN base oils. These days, a "standard" motor oil is likely to contain Group II or Group III oil with a higher VI than previous generation Group I case oils. There are even multiple ways to make a 5W-30 - even among synthetic oils. Someone said it could be via a heavier oil with pour point depressants or a thinner oil with VI improver. Using VI improver is only one way to get the VI up. ExxonMobil sells its HVI PAO as an extremely shear stable means of increasing VI of conventional oils.
There's nothing particularly wrong with using a small amount of VI improver.
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Can we agree that a high VI Index should not be achieved by adding massive quantities of VIIs, but rather by using a high quality oil? And can we also agree that VIIs are commonly used to achieve viscosity spreads, and that the average consumer cannot tell if an oil has a "naturally" high VI Index by looking at the VI Index number?
Also, because you obviously know a lot in this area, would you mind addressing V8Blitz's question, as you surely have the answer he is seeking, and I would like to hear it. Here is his question again:
[ May 17, 2005, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
Also, because you obviously know a lot in this area, would you mind addressing V8Blitz's question, as you surely have the answer he is seeking, and I would like to hear it. Here is his question again:
[ May 17, 2005, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
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