is dino enough to be sludge resistant? What happened here

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Yep...this is my problem with mineral-based PCMO's. Now, of course, this is an extreme example here (new Toyota...hot spots, geared cams, etc, etc...), but IMHO, dino PCEO's just can't keep an engine clean. Funny thing is, I bet 'ya this thing would have shown good analysis results on the 3k intervals this guy was running. In most cases though, on 3k drain intervals, you'll have absolutely no sludging problems using a mineral PCMO...just a varnished engine and "gummed-up" ring pack over the long run. [ May 16, 2004, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Jelly ]
 

tadaima

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I'm guessing this guy had a faulty PCV. I mean even with great DINO oil with a high flash point, a bad PCV system would still result in sludge.
 

TC

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Some engines simply have their quirks. Some are sludgers due to high temps in various spots and/or other design features such as timing chains/gears which tend to shear oil. Those engines may require above-the-norm oil grades, weights, and/or change intervals. But that doesn't indict dino as hopeless. In half a dozen engines over the years, including a number of sports cars and sports sedans I frequently time trialed, those engines showed only modest varnish and little or no sludge. Typically I used Castrol GTX, sometimes Havoline, even a bit of Valvoline, all dino. Not one oil related problem except perhaps for one inexplicably noisy BMW timing chain. Ironically that was the only ride I used syn in for a while -- Castrol Syntec.
 

tadaima

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I think the toyo sludge monsters had HOT head temps which causes more oil vapors, in this case I guess Dino just doesn't cut it, regardless of OCI.
 
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Receipts from Jiffy Lube. [Eek!] It's also evident he was not in the habit of checking his oil. There are two many "unknowns" here to form an opinion one way or tother. Dave [ May 17, 2004, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: DavoNF ]
 
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I don't feel this is a design issue at all.I bet it was more of an issue of owner neglect. My sister now has a 2000 Camry(formly my moms)that has it's oil changed regulary and has showed no evidence of sludge whatsoever.And this was with Valvoline [Cool] . It's now running SuperTech 5W30 with around 2K on the oil.The oil still looks extremly clean.
 
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This was definitely neglect! You don't change oil at 3000 miles and end up with sludge unless you have some mechanical issue. Daily Drives: -2003 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner XtraCab, 2.7 Liter , Mobil1 Synthetic SS 5W-30. ODO 8700 Miles. -1995 Toyota 4-Runner 3.0 V6, Mobil1 Synthetic SS 10W-30. ODO 85500 Miles. http://community.webshots.com/user/amkeer
 
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Did you notice he said the engine was out of oil? I'll bet he never checked it so he was just as much at fault as Toyota. [ May 17, 2004, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: Brett Miller ]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan: I don't feel this is a design issue at all.I bet it was more of an issue of owner neglect. My sister now has a 2000 Camry(formly my moms)that has it's oil changed regulary and has showed no evidence of sludge whatsoever.And this was with Valvoline [Cool] . It's now running SuperTech 5W30 with around 2K on the oil.The oil still looks extremly clean.
What happened in this particular case is anyone's guess. Alas, however, the 5S-FE was one of the two Toyota engines (the other being the 1MZ-FE V-6) that even Toyota acknowledged had a sludge problem. Both it and the V-6 are now covered by Toyota's after-the-fact eight year sludge cleanup policy. The 5S-FE is out of production and the 1MZ, while still being made, has been modified to eliminate (or substantially reduce) the problem. I own a post-sludge 1MZ, and I watch it just to be sure. And for whatever reason, most of the engines made during the sludge period didn't develop the problem, even if moderately neglected. Strange. . . EDIT: Oh yeah, the first thing the dealers will tell you if you ask about how to minimize sludge risk is, "use good synthetic oil. . ." [ May 17, 2004, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by tadaima: I'm guessing this guy had a faulty PCV. I mean even with great DINO oil with a high flash point, a bad PCV system would still result in sludge.
A clogged PCV will definitely make things go from bad to worse, even with synth. I ran M1 10w-30 for 3300 miles and the oil was shot on a 99 Toyota V6. PCV was mostly clogged. These engines demand a high level of exacting maintenance to go the distance. Looks like Toyota learned from the school of hard knocks and still hasn't lost many customers because of the design issues as a result of this fiasco. Is dino enough to be sludge resistant? Possibly with an engine this isn't designed like the problem-child Toyota V6's of a few years ago. IMO...I'd rather not take the chance on using dino when trying to go 250K+ on a car.
 
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This engine siezed up due to lack of oil, not due to sludging. If he's been in the habit of not checking his oil and running it extremely low every 4000 miles, then he's hurting his engine. I don't believe everything this guy is saying. If the engine has no oil, either the oil light went on, or the oil light wasn't working. This is very simple to check. And the appearance of the oil in the oilpan: I wouldn't expect the remaining oil left after you run the engine dry to look very good. I agree with Tadaima that the PCV valve was the likely culprit. My overall opinion: These engines are probably not capable of withstanding a great amount of neglect, but would likely run fine if maintained better.
 
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If he claims 3-4K oil changes he's either lieing OR the oil change joints screwed him....as much as I am a synthetic guy, and as much as I know about about Toyota sludge this just wouldn't happen so fast..... Looking at your dipstick is a GOOD thing.
 
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Help me out with this PCV being the culprit. If the PCV fails ..you merely send the EXACT SAME BLOW BY GASSES through the vent tube above the throttle body. There should be no "worse condtion", as far as oil consumption anyway. The trottle body will get some oil ..but it should just be the oil that would go to the intake below the throttle plate. This should not be too substantial ..just the normal coating that you see on the intake. It should have no impact, IMHO on engine longevity. I'm naturally open to opposing points of view [Smile]
 

tadaima

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I think depending on how it fails, if it fails being stuck closed then none of the crankcase gases gets to the throttle body and resides in the head as vapors condensing as sludge. He could be lying, but what's the point on the forum (maybe being nieve). I did notice that the lack of oil is what caused the final death of the engine, but it had to have a bad design in order to burn up all that oil before 4,000miles. I think this car just burns up oil quick regardless. Maybe Toyota should suggest changing your oil at every 2K with DINO. I do hear some bad stories at quick lube places where they screw you by not putting the right oil or the right amount in not both. I know the older camry 3sfe 4cylinder is quite sludge resistant. My friend's family has a 89 wagon with over 250K now and constantly being neglicted and letting the oil get near empty all the time. It has about two tablespoon of sludge under the cap. When it dies I'm opening the valve cover and showing it to all of ya.
 
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Read between the lines,sounds like he did not maintain his car properly.He admits to not having service done to his car and that he will pay $700-$800 to bring service up to date.I want to see his air filter,and 4k miles and the car is out of oil? [Eek!] I agree that no one wants to take responsibility for their actions.There is something up with those motors though,we had a big meeting when I worked at lexus regarding possible issues with the es300,rx300 engines and sludge.They basically were very vague and we had to use certain wording when dealing with customers,but they were going to cover any sludge issues.It did seem like the only troubles were from lack of maintenance(oil changes).
 

tadaima

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True, besides oil changes, what $700 worth of service could have caused this? Personally I dont think an air filter, lack of coolant change, spark plugs would of caused sludge issues like this. Again I think if anything, the PCV clogged would of caused this.
 
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