Is a 403b a good option?

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A 403(b) plan has become more like a 401(k) in recent years but the biggest drawback is that the choices are limited and they're often expensive. You'll likely only have a couple choices ( if that ) per fund type so it comes down to what's offered. People can suggest funds all they want but it remains to be seen if that's available to you in your plan. Worse, some 403(b) plans have annuities as part of the package which make little to no sense in a tax-deferred investment. My understanding is that 403(b) plans also have a lower age (55 vs. 59 1/2) that you can withdraw without penalty.

You get different arguments about index funds and actively managed ones and what the expense ratio is with x fund vs. y fund but an important factor to consider is what it pays you and not necessarily what it costs. An S&P 500 index fund wasn't exactly a stellar investment from 2000 to the meltdown vs. higher-yielding sectors of the market. You don't have to be a market timer, but I think in today's world you might have to be a little more cognizant than letting something ride for years without making tweaks and changes along the way. There will undoubtedly be periods where actively managed funds will do better than index funds and vice versa.
 
Originally Posted By: SumpChump
Any way to compare a chart of a slickly named managed .3x%ER vanguard retirement fund to a plain jane .05%ER S&P 500 Vanguard fund? A chart website?


I've not seen a chart, but you could certainly look at different fund prospectuses and chart it yourself. Here's an article that's interesting:

Marketwatch.com on Index Funds vs. Active Funds

The trend this article notes is that index funds tend to beat active funds in better periods, but don't perform as consistently in down periods.

Much of my portfolio is in index funds. I have it that way for a few reasons. First...I'm a long term investor (35 yo right now) and I've got, hopefully, 15 years of growth years ahead of me before I will start thinking about significantly changing my mix ratio. The market can do a lot of things in 15 years, but, overall, the trend over a period of time that long is growth. If I can just make the market for the next 15 years, I'll be happy. It'd be great to beat the market, but nobody does that consistently -- if there were a magic formula for beating the average, we'd all be doing it and we'd then be the new average. So I don't look at "performance charts" per se, and it's not my goal to "beat the market".

Secondly, if the performance of index funds vs. active funds is equal over the long haul (and it generally is close), then I'd prefer to have my money costing me as little as possible. By that, I'd much rather be in a fund with a 0.05% expense ratio (as my Vanguard S&P500 index is) than one with a 0.50% expense ratio (as many active funds are, or higher).

450px-Annual_Return_-_Fee_Impact.png


https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Expense_ratios

I suspect this is what your (wealthy) friend was advising...to at least be mindful of how much your investment gains are being eaten up by expenses. To be sure, no one variable or factor should drive your investment strategy, but you should be cognizant of a few key ones -- as they play a direct role in the result of your efforts.
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd

Much of my portfolio is in index funds. I have it that way for a few reasons. First...I'm a long term investor (35 yo right now) and I've got, hopefully, 15 years of growth years ahead of me before I will start thinking about significantly changing my mix ratio.


Are you getting into these via a Roth IRA or are you just outright "buying into" the funds as a walk-in?
 
Personally, I think you might get better advice if you state what the options of your plan are and the specific investment choices. If the choices are very limited ( like most 403(b) plans ) then the possibility exists it might be lousy-ish vs. lousier so for a 403(b) that might be the first order of business.
 
Originally Posted By: SumpChump
Are you getting into these via a Roth IRA or are you just outright "buying into" the funds as a walk-in?


I have them in 401(k)s, Roth 401(k)s, IRAs, and Roth IRAs.

I personally don't concentrate on Roth vehicles to the exclusion of everything else. I'm not normally a tinfoil hat kind of guy, but I may be wearing one in this case. It's my personal opinion that the government will eventually decide that the Roth vehicles are too good of a deal, and they'll find a way to collect tax on the earnings. I know that Roths are designed specifically to guard against that. With conventional vehicles, you trade the promise of tax-free growth with present day tax benefits.

I own both types of vehicles, and don't recommend against Roths, but deep down, I suspect the government will find a way to get their hands in that cookie jar in the future...
 
I posted about the 'Gov hand in cookie jar' possibly last month in my thread about why IRA max contribution limits are so low.

My employer uses Fidelity for our 401K and their index fund fees are super low, just like Vanguard. Some retirement 401K provider charge the worker an arm and leg for Large / Mid / Small cap funds.
 
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Originally Posted By: Kuato
I like the Roth, as it is taxed up front...historically, taxes have only climbed so you can expect more of the same. Withdrawal is tax free.

But why not do both? A Roth maxes out at only 5-6k per year depending on your age, add the 403b to it.

And your buddy may not be far off the mark either.


+1

403b is just another vehicle in the tax code to support savings. Has to do with the nature of the entity paying wages (e.g. for profit, non-profit, etc).

A 401/403/TSP type tool is one of many to use. It is nice because it limits taxable income in the here and now... Which is nice to free up cash in the here and now. But of course, especially if started young, the compounding will have a major impact on account values. And that means that a Roth is better off since the compounded final amounts of funds will be MUCH higher.

Thus the standard tax advantaged accounts, as well as their roth versions (e.g. Roth 401k) and regular Roth IRAs are valuable. If you're a high earner, you need to learn how to do a backdoor Roth IRA so that you can take advantage of that for the long run when the basic approach to opening one is blocked...
 
I have a 403b and basically its a 401, i'm earning interest on the money i would have paid in taxes. My employer matchs a bit, so its free money not to invest.
 
I have had a 403b for 31 years. The positive is that it is a vehicle for tax deferring earnings. Since the vehicle is designated for educators and non-profit organizations, there is usually not a match on contributions.
The major problem with these is that many seem to be geared toward annuities, and all are usually high cost.
However, it is a decent vehicle if you have no other options. In my case now that I am retired, I am now in the process of transitioning the proceeds into an IRA to avoid the ridiculous maintenance fees.
 
If I were in your shoes I would sit down with a qualified financial planner. They can look at every aspect of your current financial situation, where you want to be in "X" number of years, and map out a plan to get there.

You're better off with a wide range of investment tools that spread the risk. But what's included in those investment tools is different for everyone.
 
Don't forget about the fees charged for your investments in your 401K / 403B.

I checked my Fidelity account fees (Gross Expense Ratio) and this is what I'm paying:
GE 401K plan # 03439

0% Company stock
0.01% Large Cap Index (not a mistake)
0.04% Mid Cap Index
0.04% Small Cap Index

My nephew works for AutoZone and I was looking at the fees charged to AutoZone employees for their funds (also through Fidelity) and it's almost criminal what AutoZone employees pay. AutoZone 401K plan # 80519

Example:
1.3% Baron Small Cap
crazy2.gif
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Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Don't forget about the fees charged for your investments in your 401K / 403B.

I checked my Fidelity account fees (Gross Expense Ratio) and this is what I'm paying:
GE 401K plan # 03439

0% Company stock
0.01% Large Cap Index (not a mistake)
0.04% Mid Cap Index
0.04% Small Cap Index

My nephew works for AutoZone and I was looking at the fees charged to AutoZone employees for their funds (also through Fidelity) and it's almost criminal what AutoZone employees pay. AutoZone 401K plan # 80519

Example:
1.3% Baron Small Cap
crazy2.gif
crazy2.gif
crazy2.gif






Id think that yours are company subsidized they are so low.

Is the AZ one actually an index? If so, that's absolutely criminal!!
 
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