Hi-
Just got back from the Ford dealer today after geting some warranty work done, and I had a chance to talk with a Factory Technician.
He stated that Cam. shaft differences in the newer mustangs require 5W20 to lubricate efficiently at higher RPMs. This is the first time that I have actually met an individual who has stated a direct change in the 4.6L modular motor that supports the newer oil.
Can I count on Red Line 5W20 to protect as well as a 5W30 or 10W30 in the lower RPM range?
What's the deal? I have mechanics telling me that it is important to stick with 5W20. Others are saying that the only reason for the lighter oil is CAFE concerns.
I switched to Red Line 5W20 today,, down from Red Line 5W30.
Is 5W20 a CAFE oil or better technology?
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I think it will probably protect fine-other Used oil Aanalysis have proved this.
My understanding from others is that engines that require 20 wt in the U.S. are speced for 30 wt else where.
I don't think there is any doubt that the 20 wt is a CAFE issue.
quote:Ditto. I'm not so sure about the cam-shaft issue. My 2001 F150 (4.6 ltr) was the first year F-Series to call for the 5w-20 yet nothing changed in that motor from the 1997-2000 model years when they required 5w-30. I think general concensus is that the birth of the 5w-20 revolution (with Ford anyway) was indeed CAFE standards BUT they did their homework and actually formulated (or had Conoco formulate) a fine motor oil. UOA have clearly shown the Motorcraft 5w-20 to be a good choice in Ford motors that call for it. Mikep
Originally posted by Al: I think it will probably protect fine-other Used oil Aanalysis have proved this. My understanding from others is that engines that require 20 wt in the U.S. are speced for 30 wt else where. I don't think there is any doubt that the 20 wt is a CAFE issue.
There is no doubt in my mind that 5W-20 is being specified for CAFE reasons. And like other changes that have been made, the engineers will likely make changes to their design and materials over time to optimize the benefits of using that thin of an oil.
Has this already been accomplished? Since I haven't seen anything in literature to suggest one way of the other, I'd just be guessing. But I also don't see the manufacturer saying that using 5W30 will void the warranty.
Personally, I'd feel safer with 5W-30 but it took me a long time to put anything lighter than 10W40 in any of my cars.
quote:Mike the cam.shaft issue is only one of many changes. He stated that there are different oil pumps, intake m., etc. His argument (the mechanics) was a sound one. Of course he is paid by Ford to strip down and re-build these engines. He know what he is talking about. The clearances are 1000 of an inch, not allowing a thick viscocity film to lubricate. I switched to Red Line 5W20, and my car feels one heck of a lot better, now. [ January 21, 2004, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: mf150 ]
Originally posted by mikep:quote:Ditto. I'm not so sure about the cam-shaft issue. My 2001 F150 (4.6 ltr) was the first year F-Series to call for the 5w-20 yet nothing changed in that motor from the 1997-2000 model years when they required 5w-30. I think general concensus is that the birth of the 5w-20 revolution (with Ford anyway) was indeed CAFE standards BUT they did their homework and actually formulated (or had Conoco formulate) a fine motor oil. UOA have clearly shown the Motorcraft 5w-20 to be a good choice in Ford motors that call for it. Mikep
Originally posted by Al: I think it will probably protect fine-other Used oil Aanalysis have proved this. My understanding from others is that engines that require 20 wt in the U.S. are speced for 30 wt else where. I don't think there is any doubt that the 20 wt is a CAFE issue.
Frankly, a mechanic would be the last person whose opinion I would trust on lubrication issues. Many are simply not sufficiently trained in this subject. Kind of like doctors who don't know diddly about nutrition. The introduction of 5W-20 was motivated by CAFE, plain and simple.
quote:Yes, those doctors are called Engineers. But, are you able to honestly and factually say that there are not any changes to this engine that would suggest a lighter weight oil? Because I know for a fact that the 03Gt uses different heads, cams, intake maniford, oil pump, torque specs. than earlier models. These engineers have gone to school, but I am in school now, and the one thing that is taught by all colleges and graduate schools is to be weary when it comes to other's opinions. People have stated that 5W20 is a purely CAFE spec'd oil. On the other hand I know for a *Fact* that there have been changes in clearance in the later model mustang and truck/SVT engine. This brings us to the point where we must ask ourselves what is BS and what is fact. I know a 5W20 oil is more stable at longer drain intervals due to less polymers...basic chemistry. That leaves us with the dilemna: which weight oil protects better a 20 weight with fewer polymers or a 30 weight that might not lubricate our engines due to clearance issues at higher RPMs. I've used nothing but 10W30 and 5W30 in both my Ford Modular engines, and I know for a fact that on the older truck 4.6Ls 10W30 is a wonderful protector enabling 206,000+ trouble free miles. On the other hand we are talking about a 2003 GT 4.6L with different heads, cams, intake manifold, torque specs., etc. It is possible that these Factory trained Master certified Technician who spend their days in the internals of these engines might have some sort of knowledge. Why would the mechanic I talked with use 5W20 Motorcraft oil if it doesn't protect as well as 5W30 or 10W30? All the UOAs of 5W20 oil that I have seen in Ford engines produced better wear numbers than any of the 5W30s. Even Red Line's 5W20 is outperforming Red Line's 5W30. Where do we draw the line. When will we cut out all the BS and find out the truth? Dare to think that modern technology, that these Ph.D.s come up with will outperform the old. I am not convinced either way, and that is why I started this thread, to try and cut out all the BS from both sides. Maybe we can come up with some truth. PS Windsor mustang engines recommend 5W30. The Romeo, MI. engines (Mustang spec'd out 5W20). [ January 21, 2004, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: mf150 ]
Originally posted by Ron Jeremy: Frankly, a mechanic would be the last person whose opinion I would trust on lubrication issues. Many are simply not sufficiently trained in this subject. Kind of like doctors who don't know diddly about nutrition. The introduction of 5W-20 was motivated by CAFE, plain and simple.
I have been thinking about this issue for some time now and do not believe that the 5W20 was brought out for cafe reasons. Please explain the cafe difference between a 5W20 that stays in grade and a 5W30 that quickly shears down to a 20 weight? I think a major factor in Ford's push for 5W20 was that it was the only way for Ford to insure that most of its customers would use a motor oil of better quality. Ford's requirements are for a double or tripple ( I can't remember which) length test to prevent sludging. Anyone who has been around engines knows that dirty oil and a dirty engine greatly reduces engine life.
All of you Ford owners out there who are uncomfortable with 5W20 just keep on using a 5W30 that will shortly shear down to a 20 weight if that makes you sleep better at night!
quote:Thank you! Good point. Another good point is that Mobil 1 5W30 is barely in the 30 weight catagory. After 3,000 miles you might be suprised, you're actually using a 20 weight at operating temps. Most 30 weights will shear down to a 20 weight in most cases.
Originally posted by ALJAMES: I have been thinking about this issue for some time now and do not believe that the 5W20 was brought out for cafe reasons. Please explain the cafe difference between a 5W20 that stays in grade and a 5W30 that quickly shears down to a 20 weight? I think a major factor in Ford's push for 5W20 was that it was the only way for Ford to insure that most of its customers would use a motor oil of better quality. Ford's requirements are for a double or tripple ( I can't remember which) length test to prevent sludging. Anyone who has been around engines knows that dirty oil and a dirty engine greatly reduces engine life. All of you Ford owners out there who are uncomfortable with 5W20 just keep on using a 5W30 that will shortly shear down to a 20 weight if that makes you sleep better at night!
quote:O.K. that appears to be a reasonable statement....except when you apply just a tiny bit of logic its very bogus
Originally posted by mf150: [QUOTE]Originally posted by mikep: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Al: [qb] The clearances are 1000 of an inch, not allowing a thick viscocity film to lubricate. .
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon}
: A 0W-20 wt. oil is say 8 cSt at 100C and a 0W-30 wt. is 11 Cst. Soooooooo what does the very finiky engine do at lower temps?? (where it may need to pump a (gasp) heavier oil. For instance at 0 degrees they are both the same viscosity. ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon}
And to top it all off; if the engine runs at 180 F (very common) this poor little needy 20 wt. engine will be running a very heavy 30 wt. oil. .
I (like you have stated)-am wary of other's opinions-and that includes the "Factory Technician"double post, sorry! ![[Embarrassed]](images/icons/blush.gif)
[ January 21, 2004, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: mf150 ]
[ January 21, 2004, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: mf150 ]quote:O.K. that appears to be a reasonable statement....except when you apply just a tiny bit of logic its very bogus
Originally posted by mf150: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Al: [QUOTE]Originally posted by mf150: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by mikep: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Al: [qb] The clearances are 1000 of an inch, not allowing a thick viscocity film to lubricate. .
: A 0W-20 wt. oil is say 8 cSt at 100C and a 0W-30 wt. is 11 Cst. Soooooooo what does the very finiky engine do at lower temps?? (where it may need to pump a (gasp) heavier oil. For instance at 0 degrees they are both the same viscosity. And to top it all off; if the engine runs at 180 F (very common) this poor little needy 20 wt. engine will be running a very heavy 30 wt. oil. .
I (like you have stated)-am wary of other's opinions-and that includes the "Factory Technician"
Hi Al-
Pumpability at low temps. isn't what I am talking about. After at running temp. there is a difference between a 20 weight and a 30 weight oil. A 20 weight will take less effort and can hypothetically coat better.I could see your point if we were talking about the difference between a 5W weight and a 15W weight oil in wintertime, but then again we are talking about at running temp. and the ability of a 30 weight oil to flow and coat the cams. designed for a 20 weight oil. It is then that at higher rpms lubrication could lack (according to the mechanic). They've had problems and *CAN* void your warranty if you have any engine problems if you use a 30 weight oil.
[ January 21, 2004, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: mf150 ]quote:FLAW: The SAME engine in Europe are speced for 30 weight or 40 weight oil. This indicates that it's okay to run a thicker weight oil! Also, I have my doubts about 30 eight voiding warranty. My Honda manual says 20 weight is preferred, but if not available than use 30 weight. I have no seen the Ford manual, but I imagine it has a similar clause.
A 20 weight will take less effort and can hypothetically coat better.... It is then that at higher rpms lubrication could lack (according to the mechanic). They've had problems and *CAN* void your warranty if you have any engine problems if you use a 30 weight oil. [/QB]
"have been thinking about this issue for some time now and do not believe that the 5W20 was brought out for cafe reasons. Please explain the cafe difference between a 5W20 that stays in grade and a 5W30 that quickly shears down to a 20 weight?"
NONE, oil stability is the issue.
ALJAMES, I agree with you and have been saying it in different ways for years. ![[Patriot]](/forums/graemlins/patriot.gif)
quote:FLAW: The SAME engine in Europe are speced for 30 weight or 40 weight oil. This indicates that it's okay to run a thicker weight oil! Also, I have my doubts about 30 eight voiding warranty. My Honda manual says 20 weight is preferred, but if not available than use 30 weight. I have no seen the Ford manual, but I imagine it has a similar clause. [/QB]
Originally posted by batterycar:quote:
A 20 weight will take less effort and can hypothetically coat better.... It is then that at higher rpms lubrication could lack (according to the mechanic). They've had problems and *CAN* void your warranty if you have any engine problems if you use a 30 weight oil.
Please scan and post the source of your statement. Only then will this assertion have any value. I highly doubt that the 4.6L modular Ford engine with OHCs is spec.'d at a 40 weight oil in Europe. I tried this in my modified 01 4.6l F-150 and the 40 weight oil made the thing feel like a slug. You would loose a noticable amount of gas milage and power if that were the case. Ford says that 5W20 is recommended. We are not talking about Honda (preferred is specific to Honda). The Ford Master Mechanic that I spoke with also puts his money where his mouth is. He has an 04 SVT Cobra (which for those of you who don't know is supercharged). He uses nothing but Amsoil XL7500 series 5W20 oil. I have another Ford Motorsport friend that has a $40,000 lightning (which is also supercharged) and he uses Motorcraft 5W20. The service advisor behind the counter at the same dealership has an 02 Mustang GT (premium n/a) and he uses Motorcraft 5W20. These guys aren't just telling me to use 5W20, but they are using it themselves in their $29,000 to $40,000 cars and trucks. If these engines were not designed for this oil, I don't think anyone would be using it. I used to be one of those who thought that Ford was trying to meet CAFE and trick the customer into believing that clearances changed. I am of opposite mind, now. This debate has reached teh point where people are press-bent into believing that Ford is out to get them. Let me remind all of you that Ford *****CAN***** void your warranty if something should fail and they find out that a 30 weight oil was used (straight out of the advisors mouth). He admits that there will mostlikely not be a problem if you use 5W30 mechanically, but why do that? 5W20 is more stable due to fewer polymers. This oil hasn't been shown to shear nealy as much as some of teh 5W30s. The intent of this thread is not to argue, but to try and find out once and for all what is what. If you forget the topic look at the title of the thread. [ January 22, 2004, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: mf150 ]
quote:30 weight is no longer referenced in my 04 Civic manual
Also, I have my doubts about 30 eight voiding warranty. My Honda manual says 20 weight is preferred, but if not available than use 30 weight. I have no seen the Ford manual, but I imagine it has a similar clause.
mf150, You keep stating that it is "fact" that tolerances have indeed been changed to necessitate the use of 5W-20 oil, so that begs the question...why did you bother posting this thread? ![[Sleeping]](/forums/graemlins/sleeping.gif)
quote:Good question sleeping beauty! Because I want to cut through all the BS people dish out. I've heard both sides of the story. I'm trying to get people to think not sleep. This just goes to show that people huff and puff about how Ford just recommends 5W20 only for CAFE reason, when all the evidence is in favor of the new oil viscocity. I have not seen a bad UAO of 5W20, and I just want to see if I can dig any dirt up on this viscocity. What I'm getting from a lot of people is that they are afraid of trusting a lighter weight oil. There has been no evidence to suggest that 5W20 is bad for our engines. I have evidence in the form of testimony from Ford mechanics, service advisors, and a Ford Motorsport specialist. Can anyone come up with evidence suggesting their claim that 5W20 isn't doing it's job better than 5W30? If so I'd be more than willing to openly hear their explaination.
Originally posted by Ron Jeremy: mf150, You keep stating that it is "fact" that tolerances have indeed been changed to necessitate the use of 5W-20 oil, so that begs the question...why did you bother posting this thread?
Longevity? How about anyone with over 100000-150000 miles on an engine that was run with 5/20 from the start? There has to be some service trucks ,or salesmen out there,that have done this by now. I have an 02 Ford with the OHV 4.2 six banger, that I think would last longer with a 30w ( that stays in grade!), but am using the 5/20 for warranty purposes.
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Here is some interesting reading. Read this with a open mind.
I hope that this is allowed-here is the link to the EPA letter:
www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/ccd0112.pdf
copy and paste in your address bar.
I initially thought that this thread was about the recommendation of a factory Ford Service representative. Further discussion shows that the discussion was simply with a dealership mechanic who may or may not have a higher level of education or even a thorough understanding of design and engineering parameters that ultimately lead to development advances. I'll reserve my experiences with dealership "factory trained" personnel for a later date.
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