Is -50F freeze protection too much antifreeze concentration?

[eljefino]

You need evaporation for wind chill to be a thing. A closed radiator system doesn't evaporate.

Wind chill is a thing for windshield washer fluid, because it evaporates once sprayed on the windscreen. In fact the alcohol evaporates better than water so it's more affected.

So -20F rated fluid can indeed freeze up (instantly!) at temps above -20.

 

[HankHill]

You need evaporation for wind chill to be a thing. A closed radiator system doesn't evaporate.

Wind chill is a thing for windshield washer fluid, because it evaporates once sprayed on the windscreen. In fact the alcohol evaporates better than water so it's more affected.

So -20F rated fluid can indeed freeze up (instantly!) at temps above -20.

That's why I dose my fluid with alcohol for the winter.

 

[Wolf359]

You need evaporation for wind chill to be a thing. A closed radiator system doesn't evaporate.

Wind chill is a thing for windshield washer fluid, because it evaporates once sprayed on the windscreen. In fact the alcohol evaporates better than water so it's more affected.

So -20F rated fluid can indeed freeze up (instantly!) at temps above -20.

I wouldn't say that's due to the wind chill which is a number meant for human skin. I would say that's more from the different rates of evaporation of the alcohol vs the water. As the alcohol goes quicker, you're left with the water which will freeze at 0. The wind just makes it reach ambient temperature faster. I have heated windshield washer fluid but I'm not sure what it heats it up to.

Also water is a better coolant than antifreeze so it's actually better to use more water and less coolant if you have overheating problems. The coolant does have anticorrosion chemicals though so it's hard to say what the ideal mix would be. Probably why most people just run 50/50 and forget about it.

 

[dlundblad]

Some inanimate objects, such as car radiators, have an internal heat source and are not impacted by wind chill. This is, of course, provided that your radiator does not have leaks and operates normally. For wind chill to be a factor in the operation of a car radiator, a heat loss or transfer must occur. While wind chill may cause the temperature of the antifreeze in the radiator to drop, the radiator itself, like most simple inanimate objects, will not become colder than the temperature of the air.

So this thermodynamics website does indeed state that wind chill does effect the cooling of the radiator fluid, but not the radiator itself. This is where I'm kinda confused. If the radiator fluid is cooled below the temp of the surrounding radiator, does it than enter your engine cooler than your radiator, or I would tend to think the radiator would heat it back up to engine temp?

I am way overthinking this..

If it’s 10*F outside, but windchill makes it -10*F, it’ll be 10*F outside to your car. The thermometer will even agree.

Your radiator freezing solid is interesting. Assuming it was close to 50/50 and not old, it should have just turned to a light to medium slush mixture if that. Freezing solid points to an issue, but who knows.

At those temps, my concern is the battery and starter. Lol.

 

[demarpaint]

No problems with 60/40. We do it a lot up here.

This Dexcool has was close to 60/40 and has been in my Chevy LS engine for the last 3 years.

View attachment 78700

Every car that I owned and tested with one of those gauges read exactly like that. I've been driving since the mid 70's. I never had a freeze up, I did over heat due to a hose failure once, no damage though. I'd rather have the extra protection, than worry about the coolant being too strong. IMO as long as you don't exceed the maximum ratio of coolant to distilled water [stated on the concentrate label] in a well maintained car you're not going to have a problem with too strong a mix.

 

[HankHill]

If it’s 10*F outside, but windchill makes it -10*F, it’ll be 10*F outside to your car. The thermometer will even agree.

Your radiator freezing solid is interesting. Assuming it was close to 50/50 and not old, it should have just turned to a light to medium slush mixture if that. Freezing solid points to an issue, but who knows.

At those temps, my concern is the battery and starter. Lol.

I never conformed that it was frozen solid, I just touched it all around the area, and the radiator was ice cold, after driving for 15 mins. I would definitely say it was at least a slush mixture at the very least. I aimed for a 60/40 mix, but who knows if I was accurate in the task. I eyeballed it instead of measuring the actual concentration. So when I flush my heater core (not circulating fluid) I'll drop the fluid and actually measure this time.

And yes, I've checked my thermostat, it wasn't stuck open. I'm going to replace it with a Motorcraft part when I drop the fluid.

 

[wag123]

I never conformed that it was frozen solid, I just touched it all around the area, and the radiator was ice cold, after driving for 15 mins. I would definitely say it was at least a slush mixture at the very least. I aimed for a 60/40 mix, but who knows if I was accurate in the task. I eyeballed it instead of measuring the actual concentration. So when I flush my heater core (not circulating fluid) I'll drop the fluid and actually measure this time.

And yes, I've checked my thermostat, it wasn't stuck open. I'm going to replace it with a Motorcraft part when I drop the fluid.

Either your thermostat is sticking (yes, it can be sticking, slow to respond, and not be stuck), you have an air leak in the cooling system such that it won't pressurize (a faulty radiator cap, for example), or the coolant did not get warm enough in the 15 minutes you drove it to even start opening the thermostat. At very cold temperatures the thermostat may never open very much (if at all) and radiator may never get even a little warm. In extremely cold temperatures the heater alone can cool the engine enough so that the thermostat does not open for a very long time or very much. If the coolant in the radiator was actually frozen solid, it would have definitely cracked/broken the radiator, and it would have also frozen in the block/heads/water pump/etc and possibly cracked them as well.
The first thing that I would do is pressure test the cooling system and replace the radiator cap. What leads me to believe that you have a leak is that you said that the heater wasn't putting out.

 

[HankHill]

Either your thermostat is sticking (yes, it can be sticking, slow to respond, and not be stuck), you have an air leak in the cooling system such that it won't pressurize (a faulty radiator cap, for example), or the coolant did not get warm enough in the 15 minutes you drove it to even start opening the thermostat. At very cold temperatures the thermostat may never open very much (if at all) and radiator may never get even a little warm. In extremely cold temperatures the heater alone can cool the engine enough so that the thermostat does not open for a very long time or very much. If the coolant in the radiator was actually frozen solid, it would have definitely cracked/broken the radiator, and it would have also frozen in the block/heads/water pump/etc and possibly cracked them as well.
The first thing that I would do is pressure test the cooling system and replace the radiator cap. What leads me to believe that you have a leak is that you said that the heater wasn't putting out.

Oh, that was a different car, sorry I didn't make that clear.. I had two Ford Taurus's. That one with the radiator issue I sold a 280k, running strong.

The new one with the heat problem, is a typical Taurus issue. The heater core has a bypass hose, which is an issue. The heater core plugs up with rust from the block, and the coolant just bypasses the core. I have to disconnect the hoses leading to the core with a hose, clamp the bypass hose and flush the core. I did that on my old Taurus and the amount of chunky rust crap that came out was surprising. I used vinegar in the core to loosen crap up, and flushed it in both directions. Also have to change the radiator fluid so the crap in the radiator doesn't plug it up again. That's what happens in these cars when you don't change the coolant on time, or in this case, I think ever.

 

[HankHill]

Either your thermostat is sticking (yes, it can be sticking, slow to respond, and not be stuck), you have an air leak in the cooling system such that it won't pressurize (a faulty radiator cap, for example), or the coolant did not get warm enough in the 15 minutes you drove it to even start opening the thermostat. At very cold temperatures the thermostat may never open very much (if at all) and radiator may never get even a little warm. In extremely cold temperatures the heater alone can cool the engine enough so that the thermostat does not open for a very long time or very much. If the coolant in the radiator was actually frozen solid, it would have definitely cracked/broken the radiator, and it would have also frozen in the block/heads/water pump/etc and possibly cracked them as well.
The first thing that I would do is pressure test the cooling system and replace the radiator cap. What leads me to believe that you have a leak is that you said that the heater wasn't putting out.

Oh yeah, forgot to reply to your suggestions. I am anal retentive about my cars, I drive very long distances in the Adirondacks, areas where the is no reception, and no population. Also drive to Fl, and other long trips. I depend on my car not breaking down on the road.

Whenever I drop my coolant, or work on the cooling system at all, I change the thermostat, radiator pressure cap, and sometimes a hose of two that appear iffy. Again, I am anal retentive!

 

[kschachn]

That's why I dose my fluid with alcohol for the winter.

That makes it worse.

Your posts on wind chill are way off base. Higher wind velocities will help to increase the rate of heat transfer but the final temperature will only be ambient. You have to have evaporation cooling to be lower which is not the case unless your radiator is leaking.

 

[kschachn]

Your radiator freezing solid is interesting. Assuming it was close to 50/50 and not old, it should have just turned to a light to medium slush mixture if that. Freezing solid points to an issue, but who knows.

His problem can only be caused by lack of coolant.

Or a severe lack of water but even then as you say, ethylene glycol doesn’t have a rigid solid state until much colder.

 

[Oily_Thing]

No problems with 60/40. We do it a lot up here.

This Dexcool has was close to 60/40 and has been in my Chevy LS engine for the last 3 years.

View attachment 78700

Not holding it level for an accurate reading. See arrow and crosshairs at top.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Not holding it level for an accurate reading. See arrow and crosshairs at top.

Ha ha. I Knew someone would mention that. It’s actually a parallax error caused by the angle of the photograph. Thanks for the post.

 

[eljefino]

When ethylene glycol does solidify it shrinks, too, so it doesn't burst its surroundings. And as others said it turns slushy first.

My saturn s-series used to lose heat via air rushing over the oil pan etc so the heater core would take "all" the engine's heat away. Put in new thermostats every couple years, too, a wear item on those things. A cold radiator in winter is within the realm of normal.

 

[atikovi]

Not holding it level for an accurate reading. See arrow and crosshairs at top.

Haven't see those coolant testers since 80's. Are then even accurate with modern coolants?

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Haven't see those coolant testers since 80's. Are then even accurate with modern coolants?

Coolant still uses ethylene glycol, so it should still work

 

[Snagglefoot]

Haven't see those coolant testers since 80's. Are then even accurate with modern coolants?

Prestone still sells them. Heck, everyone sells them. Get on Napa online. Almost all coolant is still made from 80% plus ethylene glycol. Not much has changed density wise. And no, you can get by fine without a refractometer.

 

[Jetronic]

More than that.

70/30 = 276F down to -84F

with a 15 psi pressure cap....

 

[atikovi]

Does anyone drive around without a cap?

 

[bullwinkle]

Does anyone drive around without a cap?

Not unless you want rapid coolant loss from expansion & evaporation, and corrosion from air entering the system. Like I said above, 70/30 isn't likely to hurt anything, unless the cooling system is marginal already, and the higher 270F boiling point (w/15 PSI cap) will give some margin for error.